Dr. Akilah Cadet On Being An Accomplice Versus Being An Ally
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Foreground: A dark green box with a photo of Dr. Akilah Cadet, a Black, disabled woman with curly black hair posing with her arms crossed in front of a white backdrop, wearing a black tee-shirt that says “KEEP BEING AMAZING” in white lettering. Below is the white text “#80 Dr. Akilah Cadet - Being An Accomplice Versus Being An Ally”. Below the text is a white line, the rewind, pause, and fast forward symbols.
Jillian Curwin: Hi everyone. Welcome to Always Looking Up, the podcast where no one is overlooked and height is only a number, never a limit, hosted by me, Jillian Curwin. Each week I'll be having a conversation about what it is like to live in a world that is not necessarily designed for you.
In this week’s episode I sat down with Dr. Akilah Cadet. Dr. Cadet is a Black disabled woman who is founder and CEO of Change Cadet, a company that provides individuals and companies with services that support embedding anti-racism, diversity, inclusion, equity, and belonging into overall organizational identity & strategy. In addition, she is an author, columnist, and public speaker, and was named a 2021 Forbes Next 1000 Honoree. We discuss the relationship between white supremacy and ableism, why disability is not often thought of as an aspect of diversity in the workplace, and the difference between being an ally vs. being an accomplice. Let's get into it.
Hi, Dr. Cadet.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: Hello. Hi, Jillian.
Jillian Curwin: How are you?
Dr. Akilah Cadet: I'm cold. Even though I'm in Oakland, California, we do not do well with cold weather, in general. So, you know.
Jillian Curwin: Yeah. New York, it's finally, we had, like, a moment where I think it forgot it was fall and it was, like, really nice out. And then, like, overnight, it suddenly became in, like the thirties and forties, and I was not prepared for it.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: I'm sure. Yeah. I mean, that's why I love to visit New York.
Jillian Curwin: Mmmhmm.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: I can come back to a warmer spot.
Jillian Curwin: Yes.
So, for those who may not know, for my listeners who may not know who you are, why don't you tell them a little bit about yourself?
Dr. Akilah Cadet: Yeah. So my name is Dr. Akilah Cadet, and I dismantle white supremacy. I do that in a multifaceted way from my consulting firm called Change Cadet. It's all about organizational development. And we also happen to be, like, pretty great at diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging. We work with small businesses all the way up to million and billion dollar companies, to help them with creating cultures of belonging. So, whether we're doing some executive coaching, or workshop, or strategy, or surveying the entire workforce, we're doing it so people will not feel othered in the workplace. Umm, I'm also a sensitivity editor, so I edit books for authors and publishers to make sure that they are inclusive for all types of readers. I'm a writer, so I have a regular column that comes out every month, and I am a model and a stylist and an author. So, I'm finishing up my manuscript, my book comes out in 2024, which I'm really excited about, speaker, podcast host, I just do too much, and that is me.
Jillian Curwin: You’re a boss lady in the most badass way possible. Oh my goodness.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: Why, thank you.
Jillian Curwin: You are most welcome.
I wanted to talk to you because I heard a talk you did with Kelsey Lindell, who's a friend of mine, she's been on the podcast, about white supremacy and ableism. And, hearing the two of you talk, it was something that I didn't know much about, and wanting to learn more and just listening to you, I'm like this, I needed to get her. I needed to get you on the show.
So, before we jump into that, I do want to ask, and it's a question I ask all my guests, is how do you define being disabled?
Dr. Akilah Cadet: Umm, I define being disabled by being someone who accepts and lives in all parts of me that I have, some that are chosen, some that are not chosen. So, I live with visible and invisible disability, depending on how my body is showing up. So sometimes I have an assistive devices or braces, and sometimes I don’t. It all depends on how my body is feeling. But to me, disability, being disabled is, it's an act of resistance. Because although we have a lot of joy and pride in ourselves, we have to deal with a lot of stereotypes and stigmas from other folks in the world, from people to actual spaces that don't want us there. Talk about othering, right? So…
Jillian Curwin: Mmmhmm. I love that you call it an act of resistance, because, like you said, this world is not built for people like us, people with disabilities, and it doesn't want to accommodate, it doesn't want to adapt. And so, like us existing in a way is really challenging what society and what the environment says we should be, and I never heard it really phrased like that. So, I really love that.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: Oh, thank you.
Jillian Curwin: Ummm, so I want to talk first like, a lot of this is me learning, which is another reason why I want to have you on. I believe that you don't really stop learning. So, where does ableism like… Where did you, when you were studying this like, where did you find the roots and the connective tissue between white supremacy and ableism?
Dr. Akilah Cadet: Yeah. So umm, we have to first talk about white supremacy.
Jillian Curwin: Mmmhmm.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: So usually, when people hear white supremacy, they think a racist person, a Proud Boy, KKK, Nazi, they think of all of those things, when they hear white supremacy. But white supremacy is actually a system that sets a certain group up for success and the social determinants of health. And so, since we live with our disabilities, we know exactly the social determinants of health, our, so, access to health care, fair and equal treatment. But it also goes down into livable, walkable communities, access to grocery stores, access to jobs, education. The list goes on and on so, the social determinants of health. And so that's what white supremacy is. Unfortunately, what that means is it's only for white people.
Jillian Curwin: Mmmhmm.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: So that means someone like myself, a Black disabled woman, I don't get the same as a white disabled woman. Right? And so, when we think about white supremacy, it also entails power dynamics.
Jillian Curwin: Right.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: The privilege, right, that comes along with it. So, the person who has the most power in the US is a heterosexual, cisgender white man. He has the most power. And then second would be, you know, a woman. But, if that heterosexual, cisgender white man is disabled, he has less power because he's not part of that dominant group.
Jillian Curwin: Mmmhmm.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: Being disabled, although we can have pride in that, is viewed as a negative thing. People don't want that. They feel bad for us. How do you live your life? How do you function, right? And so that means you don't have this area and standard of being the best, right? Being perfect. We are not viewed as that. I mean…
Jillian Curwin: Right.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: We are in our own way, but we're not viewed as that, as disabled people. And so when we bring ableism into it so many things, but one, it's people feeling as if we are less than, or unable to do things, right? That goes into being the best, superior, right, white supremacy. But it's also tying into the fact that people who are non-disabled, not able-bodied, non-disabled, because disabilities isn’t a bad word, view themselves as better than us.
Jillian Curwin: Right.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: And so we are treated differently. So we don't get the same setup for success. We don't get the same social determinants of health. We don't get spaces that are created for people who have different, you know, disabilities. We don't get that. And so, if we look at white supremacy and having to be the best, the best, the best, everyone who has other points of intersectionality outside of that, they're viewed as less than. And so that's why ableism is a whole thing. And so we dismantle white supremacy, and dismantling white supremacy means everyone gets the same opportunities for success, everyone gets the same social determinants of health. Then that's how we get rid of ableism, raceism, homophobia, xenophobia, right? And the list goes on, because we're not saying one group is better or superior to other groups and other points of intersectionality.
Jillian Curwin: Wow. There's so much…wow. So like, I guess kind of going into it, because I feel like there's also an added layer of ableism within the disabled community in the sense that there is like, this hierarchy of, and I think it's kind of based on how non-disabled society sees disability where you see, you know, the icon is the wheelchair user.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: Mmmhmm.
Jillian Curwin: So they're like, at the top, they're the most prevalent. They're who we see in all the marketing. They're who, if there's going to be a disabled person, more often than not, it's going to be a person in the wheelchair. And that's not saying anything against the person in the wheelchair. Again, it's reflecting on what society sees is, you know, what their image of disability is.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: Mmmhmm.
Jillian Curwin: And I think there is, you know, within that community and it's like, interesting like, how would you like, would you say that there's ableism within the disabled community?
Dr. Akilah Cadet: Yeah, absolutely. And you shared a wonderful example. And so for instance, when I go to the airport to pre-board, [before] everyone else, I can pre-board, I'm usually questioned, especially if I don't have my cane. I’m questioned. So I mean, they can't see that it's going to take me longer to put my bag up or to sit down because the conditions I have affect my joints and my spine. They're not going to see that.
Jillian Curwin: Right.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: And that's because they're conditioned to a person who uses a wheelchair.
Jillian Curwin: Right.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: Right? So then everyone else is excluded. Sometimes you may see a cane on a logo. Sometimes you'll even see a elderly person symbol.
Jillian Curwin: Mmmhmm.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: Right? You don't see cute-ass, you know, independent women like ourselves, as that thing. So we don't look as if we deserve something. Right?
Jillian Curwin: Right.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: And so when that happens, then you can essentially have different kind of like caste systems within our own disabled community because someone may get everything they need because they're like, “Oh, I see a person in a wheelchair, so I have to support them,” or, “I have to make sure I follow the American Disabilities Act for them.” So they have that privilege that someone like me wouldn't have because I don't have that. You know?
Jillian Curwin: Right. And exactly. And like, like you said, like for me, where like, they can see my disability. But yet I still question, you know, how does society necessarily see me? Because they don't see me as non-disabled, but it's also do they see me as disabled? So then where does my body fall in the way society sees me? And then also within the disabled community itself, because, again, I'm ambulatory, I can use all my limbs, and which is like, what we kind of picture when we see disability. And yet it's like where do, who don't, where do we fall for people who don't fit that box within the community itself?
Dr. Akilah Cadet: Mmmhmm. Oh, absolutely. And so I think that not only it’s incredibly frustrating for me, and I also want to acknowledge I have the privilege of having invisible disability. Yeah, so I have that. But I can have a visible disability.
Jillian Curwin: Mmmhmm.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: But I still don't look as if I'm disabled even with my cane.
Jillian Curwin: Right.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: Right. So, so there's still, there's the stereotype that you can't be like, beautiful, and stylish, and, I don't know, like successful and all…You can't have all these things. Like, there's still this, this viewpoint of anyone, non-disabled people, and also I will say of disabled people, too it's like, what they think a real disability is.
Jillian Curwin: Mmmhmm.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: So there's, you know, times in which I feel othered even in my disabled community, because there are times where it can be invisible for me.
Jillian Curwin: Right.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: So, you know, and I don't know. It's, it's, it's, it's complex. But I do feel that if… I was literally thinking of this last week, it should be a symbol, it shouldn't be a wheelchair, it should just be some type of symbol because there's so many types of disabilities - cognitive functions to neurodivergent folks. I mean, the list goes on and on.
Jillian Curwin: Mmmhmm.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: So it really is a symbol that, oh, this person is using these things and not having to question or not having to have that person feel as if they have to show that they're disabled
Jillian Curwin: Right.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: To have access to the, the path or the program or the space or the place, whatever that may be.
Jillian Curwin: I agree. And I do wonder, like, if we did have a symbol like, what would you think like, what should it look like? Because again I'm wondering like, where did the symbol like, why, who decided that it should be the wheelchair?
Dr. Akilah Cadet: A…non-disabled person?
Jillian Curwin: Yeah.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: That's what it is when it comes down to it. I mean, I, I feel like it should be like a star, you know, because I think it highlights star - there's different points on it, different points of intersectionality, and that we're stellar, and we do stand out. So it might as well be a star, right? So, what would that look like if like, ADA parking spots had a star there? And so when I get out of my car, even though I park under the ADA, someone won’t come over and tell me I'm in the wrong spot, or I shouldn't be using my parent or grandparent’s placard…
Jillian Curwin: Right.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: Like, what would that look like? They would be like, “Oh, she’s a star star person,” you know?
Jillian Curwin: That needs to happen. The disabled community needs to come together and say that we need to change the symbol and it needs to be a star. Because, again, I think one that changes how society, and it kind of makes them kind of reconsider what they see as disabled. But, like you said, it reinforces kind of, again, like taking a little bit of our power back in that we are stellar and that, you know, we see stars as something beautiful. And I think there is a… disability is beautiful.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: It really is. It's… So, when I found out I was disabled, I was pissed. And the reason for that is I thought what I initially had was going to be fixed. Like we’ll just, we’ll, we’ll solveit , you know, because that’s what I’m used to.
Jillian Curwin: Mmmhmm.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: And I'm like, oh, something's wrong with your health, you'll come up with a solution, and then I'll take this thing, or maybe I'll have a procedure and woo, it will be done. So what I did was, because it started in my heart and then, then we learned there's other stuff going on with my body, and so I had a… In, in California, and maybe it's like this in most states, but the temporary placard is red and the permanent placard is blue, which means…
Jillian Curwin: Okay.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: So my doctor was like, always renewing my temporary placard. So one day she sat me down and she's like, “Akilah, you need a blue placard.” And I was like, “No, no, I don’t.” And she was like, “Yeah, you do. Like you’re, you know, disabled.” And so I went to DMV and I was like, you know, I got my placard and I sat in my car and I just cried because I didn't have a problem with me, I didn't have a problem with this new part of me, of how I was learning to live life again. It was thinking about how other people would treat me.
Jillian Curwin: Yes.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: You know, and that's the part that I was like, this is unfair, that I have to deal with other people's expectations, their projections, and valuing me as less than. And when you add the complexity of being like, a woman and a Black person on top of that, that was almost too hard to process.
Jillian Curwin: And so then how did you come into terms with your disabled identity? You were coming to terms with the fact that society is going to treat you differently because you are now, in the sense of getting this blue disability placard, labeling yourself as disabled. How did that impact the work you were doing?
Dr. Akilah Cadet: So, I did what any person does nowadays and I went to social media and shared [laughter] I had a lot of stuff going on. And because I hid it for a year like, my close friends and family knew, but as far as like, the world, I didn't really tell the world. And so, and my clients. Like, clients that I was working with, they knew I didn't, like, project it. And so I kind of just like, did an Instagram post and, and then like you shared earlier, I love to learn and unlearn. And so I had to learn more about what invisible disability is, what invisible illness is, what chronic illness is, chronic pain. And so, I followed folks on Instagram that were dealing with either one of those things. I realized that, hey, Akilah, you talk about belonging. So, you have this new point of intersectionality, so you might as well talk about it. And then from there I, I guess accidentally became like a disability advocate…
Jillian Curwin: Mmmhmm.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: Because I would have the privilege of looking like this and saying, “Oh, surprise, I'm disabled,” changing people's perspectives of things.
Jillian Curwin: Right.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: And so I started incorporating it more in my work and my talks. And, ummm, and really just sharing that as part of my identity. And as I went through those phases, that's how it came into a position of like, my mantra that a lot of people know, which is, “Keep being amazing.” And I, I made that shirt and that mantra because I'm nothing short of amazing. I can die at any moment in time like, right now. I can just die because my heart thinks it's having a heart attack every day. So I live with the symptoms of a heart attack - my arteries close, I get weakness in my left arm and shortness of breath at any moment in time. And those arteries cannot open up. And when they don't open up, I can have a heart attack. I can die. So I live with the reality of death every single day. And then, as we looked at more of the symptoms that came along with my heart stuff, I was diagnosed with Ehlers-Danlos syndrome. So, bascially my body doesn't have enough collagen, so I have really, really tight muscles, I have loose muscles, I have joints that link to subluxate or dislocate, so go in and out or just not go back in. And I have a lot, a lot, a lot of, a lot of pain. And so that, you know, it changed, it changed a lot of me. But, as I was tapping more into the disability community, I was learning more about my symptoms, I was learning more about what to ask for, and I was learning more about how being disabled, although is really tough, it is a way in which I'm amazing. I mean, the simple fact that I like, I get up every day and I work and I help people dismantle white supremacy, or hold them accountable, and like, show up and do stuff, it is…It honestly is amazing.
But I'm also letting other folks know, role-modeling a behavior, that you don't even have a fraction of what I have to deal with…
Jillian Curwin: Mmmhmm.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: And you get to live better in your workplace, or with your friends, with your family, in your extracurricular activity groups. And so, yeah, end of rant.
Jillian Curwin: I'm just going to echo right there that you are amazing and thank you so much for sharing that part of your story. Wow. I need a moment. Wow.
So then, when coming into, when you said you went to social media and you started following this, these people, and someone coming into the disabled community, was there anything that surprised you? Like, what really stood out to you?
Dr. Akilah Cadet: That's a wonderful question. I think that the thing that surprised me the most was how welcoming everyone was, you know? And it was just like, you know, I have seven, nine, two, five, three, whatever things. And I'm like, well, I have like, seven too, but, you know, eight X Q. But there was the shared lived experience thing of like, horrible doctor's appointments, or your family and friends not understanding, or not wanting to do anything, or whatever, that thing maybe that like, brought me into such a supportive group. So I'm super appreciative of that. But it also is like, infuriating when we think about nondisabled folks too. Because we know like, how bad society is that we need to welcome each other and make sure people feel supported, you know, in this little space, because we all have to go back out into this world and space that doesn't fully see us…
Jillian Curwin: Right.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: As for who we are.
Jillian Curwin: That's so true. And I think that, you know, for me, I've been disabled my whole life.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: Mmmhmm.
Jillian Curwin: I didn't necessarily embrace disabled as a part of my identity for, really until a couple of years ago. And coming in and it was seeing Crip Camp, and seeing that there's so much of our history that wasn't taught, and seeing the overlap with other communities. You know, learning that during the sit-ins, which I didn't know happened, it wasn't taught in my history classes, that the Black Panthers were there supporting and helping out the disabled folks in the buildings. And, watching that and you're like, why…? Why are we leaving this history out? I know it's because non-disabled people don't want to talk about it, and don't want to include it. But it's like, as a disabled person, it was like… I'm watching that, I'm like, this is not okay that it's not taught, that we're not taught about the intersectionality within the communities.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: Mmmhmm.
Jillian Curwin: And seeing that and seeing, you know, like it's so, it's, you know, I was watching it and I was talking to people who are outside of the States in Europe, and they were shocked that I didn't know it, that I didn't know that history. And I'm like, it's, it's not taught. And that's a problem.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: Mmmhmm. It’s a huge problem. For anyone listening, Crip Camp is a Netflix, is a wonderful documentary. I highly recommended it. A lot of folks in Crip Camp live out here in the Bay Area because it, it happened in San Francisco, a lot of the advocacy happened in San Francisco and Berkeley, and San Francisco. It is, [sigh] yes. So, this goes back to white supremacy.
Jillian Curwin: Yes.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: Umm, you know Texas controls what happens in textbooks. Do you know that?
Jillian Curwin: I learned that when talking, when I heard you talk with Kelsey. That was when I learned it.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: Yeah. So, because Texas makes the most textbooks, they determine like, what kind of goes into it. And it doesn't mean you can have a textbook that's not from Texas, but that's like, the biggest market for textbooks. And so, you know, if they're choosing to show things to favor white supremacy, power and control and dominance, you're not going to get true stories of Black people and history, or the enslavement of Black people, or what's happened to indigenous people and continue what happens to indigenous people, or right up with what happened with disability rights. They're not learning about that moment in time. And they're also not learning of how legislation was passed, it just wasn't being enacted.
Jillian Curwin: Right.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: That's the thing. It's like, they're like, okay fine, we did this to appease them. And so, these touch points are really powerful. Like the Black Panthers originated here in Oakland, where I live. And it's one of the reasons why I wanted to started my business here in the city. Black Panthers were feeding disabled folks.
Jillian Curwin: Yeah.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: They were brave and taking care of them, right? But history will paint Black Panthers as awful folks. Right? So again, that's how white supremacy shows up in these spaces. I think Crip Camp also really resonated with me because it shows me the privilege I have to advocate for folks who don't have the same privilege as me. So maybe they're nonverbal, maybe they have more points of disability where they cannot be independent or have access to the same platforms that I have. And so that's why I do all that I can tirelessly to let people know that, you know, if they're introducing me, I'm always a Black disabled woman.
Jillian Curwin: Right.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: And people can sit there and get very confused, but that's a way for them to reflect on their bias and their stereotype, and an opportunity for them to take the time to learn and unlearn what disability is, and their ideas of ableism that come up along with it.
Jillian Curwin: Right. And I think that provides the perfect point to pivot into more of your work. So you do… I was like, doing a little bit of research on you. And one thing I love is that you talk about being an ally versus being an accomplice.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: Mmhmm.
Jillian Curwin: And I was wondering if you could go in…
Dr. Akilah Cadet: An accomplice versus an ally.
Jillian Curwin: An accomplice versus an ally. And I was wondering if you could go a little more in detail about that, because I found that concept really intriguing.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: Yeah, totally. So, let's talk about what an ally is. It's someone who is learning how to use their privilege for good. They are going to advocate for a person or group that may not have the same access or power as them. They may start to use their voice. They may listen to this podcast. They may listen to lots of other different podcasts or stories or talks, watching shows to help them understand the person or group they want to be an ally for. And I think allyship is a wonderful way to start, but that is it. It is just a start. So allyship allows for comfort. So, for example, if someone is like, as we're preparing for the holidays, someone's like, yeah, you know, I know there's a lot of stuff going on with Indigenous people, but like there's no way that I'm going to do land acknowledgments when we go around the table for Thanksgiving. That's them making a choice of who they want to be an ally for, and they want to do for their comfort.
An accomplice to someone who's like, yeah, so we are on Ohlone land right now. I am currently on Ohlone land right now, and we want to thank our ancestors for taking care of this land so we can have this meal. That is an accomplice. They're going to do something where they are comfortable being uncomfortable, opposed to an ally who wants to be in a place of comfort. If we all stay in places of comfort, we can't be accomplices or even advocates for other people because we do have to be comfortable being uncomfortable. So an accomplice is someone who understands their privilege and their bias, and they realize that there are systems, white supremacy is a system. Oppression is a system, right? There are lots of things that are out there that oppress people more than others.
Jillian Curwin: Mmmhmm.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: With white supremacy, we have white dominant culture. White people have the most power. White people, as a result, can oppress other folks. They can harm other folks. So an accomplice, let's say the accomplice is a white woman, they can realize like, oh, I have power to oppress other people. And, as an accomplice, I have power to not oppress other people. So I'm going to say like, hey, we're going to advocate for women in this meeting or, hey, I want to, I'm a non-disabled person, but we need to have language in this policy or the way in which we gather that would be inclusive to people with disabilities. Right? So an accomplice is someone who chooses to brush their teeth, put on their deodorant, and check their bias and check their privilege, big and small actions from like, their thoughts and ideas. So, if they see you walking up the street, are they going to make unhealthy stereotypes? Or are they just going to see a wonderful, beautiful person? Right?
Jillian Curwin: Right.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: So those are the things that are a differentiating factor.
Jillian Curwin: Gotcha. And so then I feel like we, because I feel like we always are saying like, advocating for people to be allies to the community. And I think then it does need to change to say being accomplice. And I'm wondering if that's maybe people are afraid of the term because they have accomplices you kind of associate with like, being associated with, I'm trying to phrase this correctly. Like, they're kind of like, they're an accomplice to a crime.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: Right.
Jillian Curwin: I feel like that's when we often hear accomplice and ally is a nicer word, but it's not… We need more than just being an ally.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: Right. Again, ally allows people to pick and choose. Ally allows people to pause when they don't want to do anything anymore. Right?
Jillian Curwin: Mmmhmm.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: Here's another example of allyship. Multiple Black people have been murdered by police just consecutively, consistently, but when Roe v. Wade was overturned, thousands and thousands of, primarily white women, were in the street upset, upset.
Jillian Curwin: Mmmhmm.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: But they weren't upset about the other horrific things happening prior to that. So like, Haitians were being turned away to go back to a country that they weren't living in, Black people were being murdered by police. Like, there's lots of things happening.
Jillian Curwin: Right.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: But allyship allows people to pick and choose. They're like, “Oooh, this matters to me, so I'm going to do something.” So again, we have to come into this position of how am I an accomplice? So it always comes out up with like, but I don't want to rob a bank. No one is asking anyone to rob a bank. But if we want to break it down, if someone is to rob a bank, you have to plan what you're doing. You have to know all the facts. You have to know the different scenarios of what can happen. You have to know how much money is there, and you have to go in and commit to certain roles to go in and get the money in the bank. Then you have certain roles in the bank to get the money, and then you get the money and you move on. It's uncomfortable. People don't like it, right? But, they're making a commitment...
Jillian Curwin: Right.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: To do something. They don't know the outcome. They don't know if harm will come. They don't know any of those things. But they realize that's the thing that's needed to change a situation. And maybe in that case, it's someone who needs the money for their family, whatever it may be. Right?
Jillian Curwin: Mmmhmm.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: And so the commitment is what is missing from allyship versus an accomplice, because being an accomplice is lifelong. There's no end date. Where with allyship, it's like, oh, I donated, I posted a black box. I'm going to make sure I buy Black on Black Friday. You know like, it's those types of things, not things that are really changing their behaviors, and in turn change their actions for creating cultures and spaces for belonging.
Jillian Curwin: So then what if, so someone who's listening to this is who’s non-disabled,, considers themself an ally, but wants to do more, wants to be an accomplice. What, where do they start? What do they have to do?
Dr. Akilah Cadet: So they really need to understand their privilege. So, what is your, what is your privilege? Are you in a leadership role? Do you have money? Are you part of a dominant culture? So you are a white person. Are you a man? Are you things, are you something or things that have more power and more privilege? From understanding that then you can make choices of how you're showing up in the world. But again, with both big and small actions, how are you thinking, viewing, stereotyping someone? Whether you're seeing someone in the office, or someone on the street, or someone on a TV show what are those stereotypes? Ask yourself, are they healthy? Are you upholding unrealistic stereotypes of someone? And then you start to use your voice, even when it's uncomfortable. “Hey, we're preparing for doing this like, family event, or workplace event. Should we ask folks if we need to accommodate them?” You can be non-disabled and ask that.
Jillian Curwin: Mmmhmm.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. And if everyone comes back and are like, I don't need accommodations, good. Great. But if one person says it would be great to have an interpreter, or can we have captions on when we gather for the movie or the zoom or whatever it is, then you're creating a culture of inclusion. That person's using their privilege being on this like, planning committee, let's just say, and they're making sure they're providing opportunity for inclusion. Right? So…
Jillian Curwin: Yeah. And I think it ties into kind of, where my next thing, is that I also saw, you know, talking about belonging being left out of DE&I. And I think that kind of, in being an accomplice, in making sure that accommodations are made, you're creating a sense of belonging. Can you talk about like, where that came from with you? Like, where you came up with that? Not came up with that, but like where that became a part of the work that you're doing?
Dr. Akilah Cadet: Yeah. I mean, so belonging has always been important to how we've been doing work here at Change Cadet. But belonging is the end goal for everything. And quite frankly, belonging is the thing people can understand easier than diversity, equity or inclusion. So, belonging means you can be as much of yourself as you want in that space or place, so you feel as if you belong. Belonging means you know what the expectations are for you. You know that things are like, fair and equitable, but you don't have to pretend to be something you're not to adapt with the dominant culture, whatever that may be. So, it could be a woman in an all male environmen, it could be a BIPOC person, Black, Indigenous Person of Color, with how much white people, they can just, again, be themselves.
So if you take it a step back, when we think about like, workplace movements and efforts and initiatives for diversity, equity, and inclusion, there are people who feel othered just in that work, diversity, equity, and inclusion. Right? So…
Jillian Curwin: Right.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: So, let’s think about the heterosexual, cisgender, white male, single, no kids. He may feel that he can't go to the, he's not part of like, the Parenting Employee Resource Group, or the LGBTQ+ Resource Group, and he's not part of the Black Resource Group. And then, you know, there's no OKRs, or metrics, or goals that say he has to work towards something. So then what does he do? Right?
Jillian Curwin: Right.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: So that leads to belonging. So how can he feel he belongs in that environment? So yeah, you have the most power. But guess what you get to do? You get to apologize for accidentally causing harm. You get to make sure you're hiring X percent of women in your department. You get to sponsor a BIPOC event, or something like that, right? So they know how they can fit, but also they can also be themselves in the workplace.
Jillian Curwin: Mmmhmm.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: So if one person doesn't feel they belong in the workplace, then we're creating an unhealthy culture, creating favoritism, or creating bias, or creating an unjust workplace. And so when we feel like we belong, then the other stuff kind of comes together naturally.
Jillian Curwin: Do you feel that there are certain groups in DE&I and DEIB that are still left out?
Dr. Akilah Cadet: I mean, again, I don't think any…well, I'll say this. When it comes to disability, that typically is left out. And the reason for that is people don't see it as a diversity thing, or people feel like, well, there's the American Disabilities Act, so it's like, already covered. We don't have to do anything for that.
Jillian Curwin: Mmmhmm.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: But what you don't realize is that, are you educating the workforce to again, ask accommodation questions? Are you making sure in your job application someone knows that you make accommodations for someone, even during the interview process. You know? So I, I think because of that stereotype of disabled people being like, something we don't want to talk about or, you know, just overlooked and not valued, or there aren't a lot of us, it's not true. A lot of people don't realize there are more disabled people in America than there are those who identify as LGBTQ+. Yet, we have so many resources for Pride Month, and so many resources for queer folks in workplaces, and that's because people can relate, people can identify, people can feel like they understand that person. They don't with us, not realizing that anyone at any moment in time can become disabled, either temporary or permanent, including me. I became disabled five years ago. So, the truth of the matter is they should be thinking more about people with disabilities when they're doing their diversity efforts, because the very work they could be doing for inclusion and belonging can be something that they can benefit from if they ever get to the point of being disabled.
Jillian Curwin: I didn't know that statistic, but I think that makes sense in the sense that I remember in…I worked in PR for a little bit, and in June everything was Pride themed. All the company, all the companies, all the brands, all were celebrating Pride Month. And July 1st came around and there was, July is Disability Pride Month, and there was nothing.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: Mmmhmm.
Jillian Curwin: There was no other companies, no brands, none that I saw. There's like, exceptions, but like, the majority, all of those who were celebrating Pride Month, a lot of them were not celebrating Disability Pride Month.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: Mmmhmm.
Jillian Curwin: And, and I think that's kind of led to this question of like, you know, disclosure. Like do, if we hav the privilege to be able to disclose or to conceal, what do we do? And also like, in just, in getting the job and getting into the workforce, how do you conceal it? Especially because like, for me, I see with the disclosure form, it's always like “Yes”, “No”, or “I don't wish to answer”. No non-disabled person is going to say, “I don't wish to answer.”
Dr. Akilah Cadet: Mmmhmm.
Jillian Curwin: So you know that anyone who does is most, more likely than not, is disabled. But then it's like, even if I try to hide it on my resume, and in the cover letter, and everything else in the application, what happens when I walk into the room and it's like, do I feel that I belong? And do I feel that, you know, I prove to you that my, you know, I’ve sold you on just who I am as a worker. But yet what happens when I walk in the room and then they see the disability, and not being able to hide that?
Dr. Akilah Cadet: I mean, yeah. Exactly. But that's why, you know, we do a lot of work in organizations, the more they do to create cultures of belonging from the application, the interview process, the better it is. Because so many folks, disabled folks, hide their disability because they don't want to be rejected. But what that really means is that's not our problem. It's the education that has to happen in these respective environments that are accepting us. So, in America 7.1 [percent] people identify as LGBTQ+. 7.1 [percent]. But for those with disability, it is 12.7 [percent]. But this again, this again is going into what people feel is important, or relatable, or easier for them to accept, right? So it's easier for the heterosexual person to support their Gay son. Like Gay, I mean, you know, there's challenges. I'm not trying to oversimplify it. But that point you made of June and then July 1st hits, there aren't resources that are coming to work with disabled influencers. There aren't T-shirts for us. There aren't parades for us. People don't change their logos for us. Right? And so we feel it really hard, really hard. But we are almost double, disabled people are almost double the LGBTQ+ folks here.
Jillian Curwin: Right.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: But if you think about power dynamics, there are a lot of white people who are part of the LGBTQ+ community, who have proximity to power, or have power, and so they can put more emphasis onto it. They tend to, some have higher positions in their respective workplaces, where that is more of a challenge for people who live with disability. So we're not always viewed as leaders. We're not always viewed as people who are worthy of celebration, even though we have a whole month called Pride.
Jillian Curwin: Mmmhmm. And I think, you know, we saw that in terms of like, being worthy of a leader, we saw that in this most recent election with the Fetterman-Oz campaign and seeing the ableism that came out in that. And, you know, it's important too, and I literally published, as of recording this I published a piece today kind of reflecting on that and seeing, you know, just how it came from everywhere. It didn't just come from Dr. Oz's campaign. It came from the media, this ableism. And it's, what are we saying that, you know, we're telling that for young disabled kids, you can't be leaders.You, you're disabled, you can't lead. You, you know, and is that the message we want to be sending? Is that the culture we want to be creating? But yet feel like, when I feel like we say it with different like, other marginalized communities like, there's this immediate like, backlash. Like, “Oh no, we never say, we wouldn't say that. We wouldn't…” But yet with ableism, it's almost like, it's, they don't see it in the same way. I don’t know if I phrased that correctly.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: No, I mean you're absolutely right. I think that's a wonderful example for so many reasons. And also, important to note that we're talking about a white guy, and that we're talking about him that way because disability is viewed as less than. Right?
Jillian Curwin: Right.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: That's that power dynamic, that shift. We’re viewed as less than. And so when you think about it, disabled folks have a history in this country of being sent away, being hidden, you know, being forced to stay at home because there were times where things were not accessible. And so people have learned this behavior and passed it on. And so it's just kind of like, no, you clearly can't do things because you're gonna need all of this assistance. We can maybe do things the same way, maybe differently. They can still be done. It's just that person's bias and their stereotype that will, they will force these feelings and behaviors as if we can't or, you know, we're less than.
Jillian Curwin: Exactly.
With the work that you're doing, and the work that you've done, is there an accomplishment or achievement that you're most proud of?
Dr. Akilah Cadet: That's an interesting question. I am most proud of being able to pay employees year after year, quite frankly, because you just never know what's going to happen as an entrepreneur. I mean, I think that's a proud moment. I, I, I'm a Virgo so I’m really good at just not thinking about myself. So I, I think it is incredibly difficult to have a successful company, or just any company, doesn't have to be successful, just to have a company and I feel like that is biggest accomplishment. Getting to what you're saying about like, Fetterman, I'm not supposed to lead and here I am on a stage for Salesforce with a cane, you know, doing things that folks wouldn't think I can do. And so I find that I'm about to, January will be eight years that I've had my business, which is like, two years away from ten. Like what is that?
Jillian Curwin: Right.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: And most don't make it that far. I think that's definitely something to celebrate. And then I think another success is that I'm still alive to do it, you know? So I'm in a very stressful line of work, but I've found ways to kind of like, make it work even through the trauma I receive and through the physical toll it takes on my body to, to do this work.
Jillian Curwin: So then, in two years as you're celebrating your ten year anniversary like, what are your goals? What do you…?
Dr. Akilah Cadet: Hmmm, the goals? Probably a shit ton of money in the bank for the business and me, so that would be a goal. But I just really hope we're in a position of, of working with brands and companies that are really committed to doing the work. In two years time I hope to be on Oprah's Book Club list. So, that will be happening at that time. A New York Times bestseller, which I think is also another… reason why I'm writing the book, is to have more of a platform to tell my story as a Black disabled woman, and to get it out there. Yeah, maybe closer to working with Beyoncé in two years. So…
Jillian Curwin: All that needs to happen, all that's going to happen.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: I mean, it does. And then have a party, depending on how I feel.
Jillian Curwin: Who do you look up to?
Dr. Akilah Cadet: Umm, that’s always an interesting question. I look up to myself, I really do, because some days I, I reflect on like, how was I able to do all of that? And then I'm just really proud of me. I do look up to Beyoncé Giselle Knowles-Carter. I think she's a wonderful artist, and all of that stuff. But she's an incredible businesswoman, and the way she is strategic about so many different things, and also has multiple titles, she's a slasher like me, is really, really great. So, I've loved watching her grow over the past couple years. So yeah.
Jillian Curwin: I love that first you say yourself. I, I love that. And like, I think that's so important too. And you absolutely should, because you, again, we said it before like, you're amazing. So, I love that.
Are there any questions I have not ask that you would like to answer?
Dr. Akilah Cadet: Oh, that's a great question. And what's a good question that you can ask? How can, how can people be a disability accomplice in their respective workplaces? I think that's a good question.
Jillian Curwin: Okay. So then, how can people be disability accomplices in the workplace?
Dr. Akilah Cadet: So the first thing is to say that they are non-disabled, and bringing that into the conversation. When people say they're non-disabled, they are normalizing this word that some people feel is a bad word.
The second thing is to champion celebrations around disabled people. So do some type of activation, or something, or have a speaker come in for Disability Pride Month in July. The other thing is using your voice to make sure shared experiences. So all staff meetings, team meetings, whatever they may be, are accessible to everyone, to everyone. Again, if no one needs a thing, that's fine. But you're normalizing that type of ask.
And then the other thing is to check their bias and their stigma, their stereotypes that they have towards disabled people. I feel people are surprised when I'm like, disabled. They're just like, puzzled. They’re just trying to figure it out. And sometimes I just let them spin because it's fun. And other times I will, I will explain it. But realizing that disability is different for everyone, and if they are in a position to not be disabled, they're in a position to champion for us.
And last, last, last, at any moment in time, they can become disabled, a loved one in their family can become disabled, whether it's permanent, temporary. And those are moments in which you wish you would have been saying non-disabled, and asking for accessibility, and so that it would be normalized if that ever happened. I…disability is hard, but disability is not, you know, impossible. And so I think the more ways in which we can be celebrated in workspaces, I think that really can help change the culture because we spend so much time at work than we do in our own lives.
Jillian Curwin: Yes. And I always love to say that disability does not discriminate.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: It doesn't. But also discrimination doesn't discriminate either. So, yeah, there’s that too. As someone who gets the multi, you know, levels of discrimination, you know, I, I get all of it all of the time. Yeah.
Jillian Curwin: Dr. Cadet, again, I'm going to say you are amazing. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. You need to come back on because again, there's so many more questions I want to ask, so many more things I want to learn from you.
Where can my listeners follow you?
Dr. Akilah Cadet: Yeah. So you can find me @changecadet, so the word change, C-H-A-N-G-E-C-A-D-E-T, cadet, C-A-D-E-T, pronounced Cadet. I’m on all platforms. It's also the name of the website. If you're looking to learn and unlearn, we have the Change Cadet Action Network where there's videos, and tools, and tips, and tricks for navigating spaces so you can be an accomplice. So we have that. So yeah.
Jillian Curwin: And I'll have links to all that in the show notes. So go follow, go support, go learn. And again, you're coming back on. That’s wasn't a question.
Last thing I like to do is I do an icebreaker at the end because I think it's more fun that way.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: Ooo.
Jillian Curwin: So I have five categories and I just want to hear your favorite in each one.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: Okay.
Jillian Curwin: Favorite book.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: Trevor Noah, Born a Crime.
Jillian Curwin: Yes. Favorite TV show.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: I don't have a favorite TV show, but I, I do enjoy reality, like Real Housewives stuff, or like 90 Day Fiancé, Married At First Sight stuff, because I can really like, disconnect with those types of shows.
Jillian Curwin: Do you have a favorite housewife franchise?
Dr. Akilah Cadet: It is between Salt Lake City, Potomac, and Atlanta.
Jillian Curwin: You said all my…Okay, we're, we’re going to be, we're going to be talking a lot more about that because we love Bravo here and those are, I think, those are like the top three franchises right now.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: Mmmhmm.
Jillian Curwin: Favorite drink.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: What is my favorite drink? Ummm, like a cocktail?
Jillian Curwin: However you choose to interpret that question.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: Drink? So it's either… probably like, Haitian rum on the rocks, or like a piña colada.
Jillian Curwin: Oooh.
Favorite piece of advice you've ever given.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: Keep being amazing.
Jillian Curwin: Yes.
And last one, favorite piece of advice you've ever received.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: Umm, I would say, probably something around like, staying in my light, or something like that, or my radiance. Like, don't mind other people like, dim or dwindle in your life, those types of things.
Jillian Curwin: That is the perfect note to end on.
The final, final, final thing I just have to ask of you is to remind my listeners, in your most badass voice possible, that height is just a number, not a limit.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: Height is just a number, not a limit. That's so good.
Jillian Curwin: Always Looking Up is hosted by Jillian Curwin, and edited and produced by Ben Curwin. Please make sure to rate, review, and subscribe, and follow on Spotify so that you never miss an episode. Follow me on Instagram @jill_ilana and the podcast @alwayslookingup.podcast for updates and check out my blog JillianIlana.com for more content about what it is like to be a little person in an average sized world.
Thanks for listening. See you next week.
Follow Dr. Akilah Cadet:
Instagram: @changecadet
Twitter: @changecadet
Website: https://www.changecadet.com
Join the Change Cadet Action Network HERE
Listen To Dr. Akilah Cadet On Being An Accomplice Versus Being An Ally
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