Nic Novicki On The Battle For Authentic Representation
Image Description:
Background: A white background with the words “LISTEN NOW” written in gold
Foreground: A dark green box with a photo of Nic - a man of short stature with brown hair and beard, sitting in a chair, smiling, wearing a black suit jacket, white shirt, blue tie, black pants and black shoes. Below is the white text “#66 Nic Novicki - The Battle For Authentic Representation.” Below the text is a white line, the rewind, pause, and fast forward symbols.
Jillian Curwin: Hi everyone. Welcome to Always Looking Up, the podcast where no one is overlooked and height is only a number, never a limit, hosted by me, Jillian Curwin. Each week, I will be having a conversation about what it is like to live in a world that is not necessarily designed for you.
In this week’s episode I sat down with Nic Novicki. Nic is a comedian, actor, and founder of the Easterseals Disability Film Challenge. This conversation was sparked by and recorded shortly after it was announced that James Franco would be playing Fidel Castro in an upcoming biopic and actor John Leguizamo’s reaction. We discuss the ongoing struggle for authentic representation in Hollywood, the portrayal of little people, both real-life and fictitious, on stage and screen, and the importance of the Disability Film Challenge. Let's get into it. Hi, Nic.
Nic Novicki: Hey.
Jillian Curwin: How are you?
Nic Novicki: I'm good. How's it going?
Jillian Curwin: It's going well. I am very excited to talk with you.
Nic Novicki: Yes, I'm excited to talk with you, too. This is… it's funny. I feel like we've, we've talked together, but it's, it's awesome to be able to talk in, in the space on your podcast. I'm a big fan of what you do and, and this is awesome to get a chance to, to do this and, and also to do this virtually, you know, and I'm in L.A. You're in New York, I imagine.
Jillian Curwin: Yes.
Nic Novicki: Awesome.
Jillian Curwin: Mm hmm. Love, love the Internet and what it's, how it's able to especially, I think, with COVID and our community, especially being having to be away for so long, and the fact that we are still able to come together in places like this to talk and to connect. So, I agree and thank you for being a fan and happy to hear that.
Nic Novicki: Yeah, I know. Absolutely. You do such great work. And, and, and through your podcast, you've been able to kind of amplify and, and really showcase all these different performers and and and people and, you know, and Mark Povinelli is a friend and president of Little People Of America, you know, all those different, you know, guests that you've had. So I'm honored to be on here.
Jillian Curwin: Thank you. And I’m very excited to now amplify your voice. And to start, I just want to ask if you could tell my listeners a little bit about yourself.
Nic Novicki: So I'm Nic Novicki. I am a little person, obviously, but I am an actor, comedian, producer, and I am very lucky in that I've been in over 40 TV shows and movies. I've got the chance to work with Martin Scorsese, The Farley Brothers. I’ve toured all over the world, including standup comedy tours for the troops. But the majority of my work has been self-driven, me writing, producing and creating my own content.
And ultimately, ten years ago, I looked around and I was like, “Why aren't more people with disabilities creating their own work?” So I created the Disability Film Challenge, which is a film competition where you need to have somebody with a disability in front of or behind the camera. So, crazily enough, this is about to be year ten. I partnered with Easterseals, the nation's largest disability services organization, and we could talk more about that later.
But it's kind of crazy when you look at your life and you know where things are. I'm about to be 40. I'm like, oh, wow, I've been doing this for ten years now. And, you know, and obviously I'm an artist first and a comedian. So it's, it's just so fun to, to be able to, to, as I said before, have like a platform where, where virtually we can, we can be together. I could be on your show and not be in New York or you can, you know, work with people. And I just, I just love how we're in this time where remote capabilities are so amazing.
Jillian Curwin: Love that. And we're going to get into a lot of what you just talked about. I didn't realize it was ten years. That's amazing, with the film challenge, and we're definitely gonna get more into it. But first, I want to ask how do you define being a little person?
Nic Novicki: I, I, I think just being a little person, it's who I am. So a lot of times, kind of, I forget that I am a little person. And then I realize I am a little person based on, kind of, surroundings. And it is definitely such a part of who I am, though. I've been involved with Little People Of America since I was a kid. I have been playing sports through Dwarf Athletic Association of America since I was a kid. Now I coach at these conferences.I didn't go this year, but my wife is a little person. I'm a dad now and we actually don't know if our daughter is a little person yet because of pseudoachondroplasia actually doesn't show up until after 2 [years old].
So yeah, I guess it would be hard for me to define what being a little person is, but it's something I'm very proud of and it is very much a part of my identity, but also doesn't define who I am.
Jillian Curwin: I love that answer. I love that so much. Can you touch on, because you said something that I actually didn't know, and that pseudoachondroplasia, which I know is another form of dwarfism… And there are, I believe, now over 400 types. Can you explain, like, what that is and why doesn't that show up right away?
Nic Novicki: Yeah, it's, it's, it's kind of interesting. I like to consider myself a chameleon, you know, where the, the master of disguise of dwarfism and pseudoachondroplasia. So, we didn't know, my family, that I was a little person until I was almost three, because when you have pseudoachondroplasia you… it doesn't really show up until you're, you know, two or three because I was actually the same height and weight in tracking as my brothers.
And it really doesn't show up until your spine starts to curve because of scoliosis or some of these other things that don't really, you know, you know, when you're just a baby or are very small, you can't really identify it. So it's interesting. We, we don't know yet if our daughter is going to be average height or have pseudoachondroplasia, similar to the position that my parents were in. Now, I think the difference is we know that it's a possibility. So we're more kind of checking this out and, and interested to find out more so than my parents, because my parents were just like this is the eighties and they were like, “What? What is…” You know, they had no idea.
Jillian Curwin: That is interesting. I didn't know… I knew of pseudoachondroplasia, but I didn't know that you won't be able to tell right away. So that's really interesting. And I think, you know, it reflects now that like, now we have all these tests. Like when I was born, and I was born in the nineties, my parents didn't know until they had me and even then they weren't 100% certain. And it wasn't till I think a little over a month later when they took me to the doctor that the doctor is like, “Yeah, she's little. Like you… Like I could tell.” That's really interesting. So…
Nic Novicki: So I think the thing is that we… If, if our daughter had achondroplasia, which is what my wife has, we would be able to know right away, even before she was born, just through the tracking and the growth charts and things like that. With pseudoachondroplasia, there is, there is a way to test and do a little bit more of testing and genetic testing in different areas and then we probably would be able to find out. But for us, it's, it's not really needed because, like, we know what it is. I have a pseudoachondroplasia. So, if she ends up having that, we're not going to do anything different. We would just live the life as if… I've already lived. So it's not that, you know, it's something that, you know, I don't think we need to go through, you know, heavy duty testing or, or different areas because it's, it's something that we already know what we're getting into. And and honestly, in some areas, like, it's just the same as anything else. I think we're focused more on the things like reading and teaching or how to do this or that or basic parenting stuff more than little person preparation.
Jillian Curwin: Right. Well, I'm very excited to watch her grow. She's very cute. So I'm very excited to see the woman, the young woman she becomes.
There's a very specific reason why I want to… I do want to pivot because there is a specific reason why I wanted to have you on now and that, as we're recording this, a few days ago, it was announced that James Franco is going to be playing Fidel Castro in an upcoming biopic?
I think it's a biopic. And, I always pronounce his name wrong and I am sorry in advance for pronouncing his name wrong, John Leguizamo… I know I said that wrong.
Nic Novicki: John Leguizamo.
Jillian Curwin: Spoke out against it, which I've… John Leguizamo. See? Every time. Which you spoke out against. And which, when I saw, I was confused by this casting choice too. And you had pointed out that, you know, this casting doesn't make sense necessarily, but that also he played a little person in Moulin Rouge of French nationality. And this is a real little person, like this wasn’t a fantastical character. This was a real little person that he played and he played this character on his knees. And so when I saw this, I'm like, this is such an interesting way to talk about the representation of little people, of disabled people, and that we're not necessarily calling it out when non-disabled actors… or it's not as called out in the industry. And you can correct me if I'm wrong about that, but it seems like it's not getting called out as much.
Nic Novicki: Yeah, well, shout out to my Instagram channel, @nicnovicki, and feel free to follow me and… on Instagram, Twitter. So yeah, I saw this and it was a Variety article and the Variety article said, “John Leguizamo calls out James Franco for playing Fidel Castro.” And it was, you know, framed as that, “Hey, this is wrong. You're, you're, you know, that you're, you're playing somebody who's not, you know, like… somebody white is playing somebody Cuban. And, you know, somebody who's Latinx and… You know, I think that there's a reason for John Leguizamo to, to voice that. And is that the most authentic casting? I don't know. I mean, when I, when I think of somebody Cuban, I've been to Cuba, you know, and I, I don't know if, if James Franco would be the first person I think of. You know, he does kind of look like him a bit though, you know, when they have this side by side with him and a beard.
But my… I kind of set…. So my Instagram post, I'm a comedian, so I kind of said this honestly a little bit as a joke, but I said, “This is crazy. Side note: Did John Leguizamo play famous little person Toulouse-Lautrec in Moulin Rouge? Asking for a little person actor, friend,” and I did like a smiley face emoji and I, I was kind of meaning it as a joke, but it really prompted a lot of discussion. So there's a lot of people going back and forth because it was a joke, which I think, you know, is the best kind of joke, that makes people think and talk. And a lot of people were, were talking and some people about how that, you know… voicing their opinion about that authentic representation for Latinx community. And some, you know, people that were, you know, saying, oh, you know, this is going too far. And look, I, I don't know that I'm the person to talk about what is authentic in the Latinx community because I am not Latinx. I am a white guy - I'm German, Polish, Irish, you know. So, I don't know that it is my place to, to talk about if this is authentic or not. So… that would be more for John Leguizamo to, to weigh in, and I like that he did, as somebody who's Cuban, and talk about it.
Jillian Curwin: Mmhmm.
Nic Novicki: But I did want to point out, as a side note and, kind of, a little bit, as a joke, but a little bit, there's truth to it, “You played a little person, John.” So, as you said…
Jillian Curwin: Right.
Nic Novicki: In the framing of this question, yeah. I mean, when this came out, and this was 20 years ago, I don't think anybody in the industry cared that, that was… You know, here is this great three-dimensional icon, one of the most famous little people of all time, really, up until, you know, this this guy, what… Toulouse Lautrec was part of the Moulin Rouge scene and a famous painter and, you know, it was, was, you know…I don't know the whole history of Toulouse Lautrec, but I know he was very famous. So I'm, I’m going to start, start out sounding smart and then quickly trail off because I don't know his whole background.
I, I do know that people, you know, they didn't really question it as much. I think some little people actors were probably upset at that time. You know, to be honest, at the time I was acting, but I was also in school, and I wasn't really in the scene as much as I am now amongst little people actors that are out there working. And but, but yeah, I think that this really was a… was something that resonated in the community. And it's a discussion that I think is a continuing discussion.
Jillian Curwin: 100% and continuing that like… I don't necessarily think people are still batting an eyelash about it because Moulin Rouge is, they turned it into a musical, which… it's a lot. And the actor playing Toulouse, to the best of my knowledge… I saw it when it did like its pre-Broadway tryout in, umm, Boston before it actually came to Broadway. But I've been like following it, I'm very into theater, and the actor playing Toulouse now is not a little person.
Nic Novicki: Wow.
Jillian Curwin: And I think of other… Yeah. And I think like other shows… I know this was years ago, but they did a production, there's a Broadway production of Shrek where the actor playing Lord Farquad, regardless of what you feel about that character, was still played by an average height actor on his knees, even though that character wasn't necessarily a little person, but it was definitely someone who was short stature.
Umm, so I think it's interesting that even, you know, we're still seeing it and this is 20 years since Moulin Rouge, the movie, came out and then even when they brought it to Broadway that they didn't think… and I don't know, I wasn't involved in the casting process. Maybe they did reach out to little people actors but, the fact that they don't have a little person playing a real little person.
Nic Novicki: Yeah, it's, it's, it's interesting. And you know what? I think, I think it's a healthy and important thing to talk about and to dialog about. You know, honestly, my goal and sort of my mission and what I do is not really about pointing out what's wrong, but what I do with the film challenge, and what I've always done in my career, is what more can I do for myself? What can I produce? What can I put out there in the world? And how can other people create their own platforms? So, I think that this is an important conversation, but it's one that I generally do not focus on as much. I'm more about, hey, what can we do to elevate and amplify our community and create our own platform, and our own Moulin Rouge, and our own whatever?
And maybe there is a biopic that can be done about Toulouse-Lautrec that's produced by a little person and stars a little person. You know? Maybe that… I'm calling that out there, listeners, if we have anybody ready to go at the financing and you know, you know, that would be a great project. Then come on here on this…
Jillian Curwin: I would love.
Nic Novicki: You know, just, you know, they come on here and they're on the podcast and, you know, they're getting interviewed about, you know, how did this come about? And then, boom, back to this interview.
Jillian Curwin: Yes! Mmhmm. I would love to see that. And I think this ties in to where I want to go next with the film challenge. And just to see more authentic representation of, specifically little people. I think we're getting better. We're definitely not there yet, in terms of disability representation as a whole, but I think little people are still, like, we're still not even where they are yet. And so, I'm just, you know, I would love to see that. I have now…. Okay, that’s another conversation. But I do, I want to ask, so you, that like where, and I like that you said like what can I do? So then how did you come to the film challenge? Like how was that your answer?
Nic Novicki: Well, honestly, my, my trajectory in my career was always about what can I do for myself, you know, honestly, because I want to act, I want to do standup, I want to do all these things. So, I started to learn how to produce and a whole other skill set based out of necessity so that I could be able to, to play the kind of roles I wanted to play. I knew I wanted to be the gangster or the romantic lead or some of these other entities. So, I, I was able to kind of put together people that I know and starting small and then scaling up. So starting with a short film or a web series and it's a, I'm the romantic lead. And, you know, I know this other actress who's good, and I know a camera person who will work at a lower rate than he does because I'm able to explain to him my vision and what I want to do with representation and, and the reason why we want to do this project. And maybe there's just one other editor. So I think a lot of times people think that you need to have $1,000,000 or $100 million to do a project, or to create something, when in reality, you know, a lot of people will help you and will join you in your vision if you can explain it ,and if you can start doing a lot of the work on your own and, and sort of put it out into existence. And, and that's what I did a lot in my career, you know, really starting out to be like, you know, if I want to be that gangster, let me try to figure out how to do a version of it. And it may not be this crazy scene where we're going to, you know, have all these stunts and VFX, but we could start with a little trailer or, or something else. And so, ultimately, that led to, to work for me. I was able to take certain roles and, and projects that I did, and put that into my reel, and all of a sudden now, mix that in with some other TV shows that are sort of larger, you know, and, and all of a sudden now I have a body of work. And even before I got some of those other TV shows that I, that I was on, I was able to, to use just things that I produced and myself.
Now, ten years ago, I was looking around, I was like, “Why aren't more people with disabilities, including little people, doing this themselves?” Because now, with DSLR cameras and, you know, editing equipment, even, even phones have the ability to, to edit and do so much now, that there's no reason to, to, to wait. Now is the time to, to sort of take your career in your own hands. So I created this competition to help other people tell their stories, but also to give them a deadline. So, the whole films, what started as… they had to be done in a weekend. Now we give almost a full week, but it gives people an incentive - by prizes, mentor meetings - to make a film, but also to complete it, and then to show it. And so ultimately this is leading to really cool representation. And we've had, you know, films that won best film that were starring, written by, and, and produced by little people and people of every, you know, kind of disability. Because when you say the word disability, that encompasses 61 million Americans. So that's one in four Americans, roughly, have some form of disability, whether that be, you know, a visible disability, like being a little person, or a wheelchair user, or somebody with Down syndrome, you know. Or you know and, you know, an invisible disability, and that could be the autism spectrum or PTSD or all these other things. But, but ultimately, we're all under this umbrella of disability. And, and it's something that I'm very passionate about and, you know, I kind of joke, but it's, it's crazy that, you know, this is going into year ten next year. And so, this is something that, that really started as a way for me to help encourage a couple friends with disabilities to take their career in their own hands and, and to create something, and, and it's really kind of launched into something much larger and, and something that the disability community has really got behind.
Jillian Curwin: I think what, that, like, this whole the film challenge itself is so important because I think when talking about representation, the focus is so much just on screen or on stage, but to have the focus of this challenge to also be behind the scenes, just to have that representation, because there are disabled writers, there are disabled directors, there are people just, you know, they're out there, too, and they want their chance. So you're not… it's not just for the actors and actresses. It's for the people behind the scenes, like, it's all part these creators. And I think that is so important. And you said that the disabled community has responded positively. I want to know then how the industry responded when you started this.
Nic Novicki: Yeah, well, I think, like everything, it's, it, it's sort of baby steps. You know? It's, it, the first year of the challenge we had, I think, four films. This year, on the ninth annual Easterseals Disability Film Challenge, we had 95 films that were created from all over the world. So, I think industry wise, right away, they took notice, I would say, and when I say they, that's different producers and casting directors and individuals. Uhh, it started out as a lot of people within my network and people that I had worked with or, either directly or indirectly through… I'm also a producer in the Producers Guild of America, so we had a lot of people that already followed me and my career and they were able to see about the challenge. And and, you know…
Dell was the sponsor right from year one. So, also Fortune 500 companies, but they've really been so engaged, and involved, and supportive of the film challenge from the beginning. But, but really it was a trickle-down effect that, year after year, we've grown, and our sponsorship has grown, and all those opportunities have grown in, in that we've really become a resource for people, whether that's casting directors, networks, studios, that will come to the challenge and use our database of film challenge participants, both in front of the camera and behind the camera.
And, you know, we do screenings and workshops throughout the year and so, I would say the industry has always been supportive, but it is only growing more and more, both their support and how they've utilized the film challenge and our talent.
Jillian Curwin: It was kind of the next question I was going to ask. I was going to say, like, where have the people who've participated in these challenges, like, what happens next for them? And so, it's good to hear that they're getting seen by casting directors. They're getting seen by these people who can give them opportunities. Because I think so often, and having worked at a talent agency for a couple of years, and like familiar a little bit with the industry, the hardest part is just getting into the room, is just getting to be seen. And so you are really giving them this amazing opportunity to be seen. And, you know, and more importantly, people are coming to see it.
Nic Novicki: Absolutely. You know, and I think, really the mission of the challenges is, is, you know, to create opportunities for people with disabilities in front of and behind the camera, but ultimately, to also change the way the world views disabilities. And I think the films themselves do just that. You know, when you when you are able to create something and put it out there and play the kind of role that you want to play, and you're involved in writing or producing or you learn how to edit, even sometimes by necessity, you're ultimately going to be able to create the best calling card for yourself and as an example, well… First of all, if you go to disabilityfilmchallenge.com, you can see past challenges. If you hit the challenge tab, you can see all of our winning films from the last nine years. But also, there's a success story tab that shows all these success stories and how, really, jobs have gone to film challenge participants and and how we've been a resource for the industry.
But just to point out one success story, and kind of keeping it in the family of little people, you know, we, we had one instance where there was a little person actress, who you know, and her name is Sofiya Cheyenne. And she's in New York and she's a theater actress and she's very talented. And she had entered the challenge, made a film, starred… starring her, and she wrote it and produced it. And, you know, we had this unbelievable opportunity where Peter Farley, who is an Oscar winning director and producer, he was actually our first big mentor in year two of the film challenge, you know, and he's been supportive the whole time. And, you know, this is a couple of years ago and, and he reached out and was like, “Nic, do you have any little people, actresses? I have this major recurring role for little person actors. Do you, do you have any ideas?” And we were able to share numerous films that starred little people actresses in these three dimensional roles. And he auditioned every one of these actresses and ultimately saw Sofiya. And through this film and through her audition, she ended up getting a multi-year recurring role on his TV show Loudermilk. So that's an, that's an instance where, you know, putting yourself out there opened up the door because he's already been a part of this. You have somebody like Peter Farley who, who is supportive of the film challenge, but he's using the tools that are these films as a way to, to, to use this as a pipeline for projects that he's working on. And we have multiple, similar stories that happen with different judges and mentors and sponsors that really have utilized the challenge both in front of and behind the camera to to have them work on, on projects internally.
Jillian Curwin: That's amazing. And, I do know, Sofiya, love Sofiya, still need to get her on the podcast, we’re making it happen, I promise. And you said something that's really, you said something that's really important. You say that they're seeing these people, these disabled actors and these disabled creators, tell authentic, real stories. And I think a lot of times, particularly with little people, but even with other disabilities, and this is more I'd say on screen, that we're not, they're not given those roles. They're, you know, for little people were often these mythical, non-human like creatures – often, that's not always - or, you know, we’re this like, it's like subject of inspiration or when it's and then a disability is told authentically, it's not a disabled actor in the role. So, I think, you touch on something that you’re seeing… that they're seeing these people tell real, authentic stories. I think that's, you know, still it's 2022 and we're not seeing that.
Nic Novicki: Yeah. And I think, I think to me, you know, I focus on how, how do we change that and how do…? And to me, I think that happens through telling your own stories and being in charge of and spearheading your own narrative, you know, by, by writing, by producing. And it's scary. You know, if you, if you're an actor, you know, you want to just act or, you know…
Jillian Curwin: Right.
Nic Novicki: A lot of times you want to just… Right. And, and there's nothing wrong with that. But we are in a time now where many people in other marginalized groups have had a lot of success creating authentic representation, getting jobs and better representation for their communities through doing more than one thing - through writing, through producing, through, through doing as much as humanly possible on, on your own. And so really, that's where my kind of emphasis goes and what more can we do? And I think, you know, when you talk about the greatest example of representation and I guess the superstar of little people and probably not just little people anymore, just actors, you go to Peter Dinklage, you know. I mean, he's, he's an A-list actor who happens to be a little person, you know, that's, that's you know, that's where we're at. And if you look at where he got and how he got there, one he’s super talented. He's an amazing actor and he's very trained and, you know, went to acting school and worked in theater and did all these amazing kind of stepping stones to get to where he is.
But a big part of where he, what kind of launch Peter was The Station Agent. And this was a very low-budget, independent film. And it was people are, they, you know, it took them a while to make this film. And, you know, ultimately it's, it's, he was able to get there by doing theater and by doing other smaller projects and things where, you know, it really was him creating his own identity and an umbrella. And I think that projects, sometimes it takes a smaller project or an independent film that really showcases who you are, and then you end up in the Game of Thrones or a Marvel, you know, series. So, I think a lot of times it's how can you showcase yourself in the best way possible? And, and I think really independent film is that, is a way to do that.
And I think short films and web series and, and podcasts, frankly, I mean…I think this podcast does that, you know. I think there's so many different ways to, to authentically tell your story now, and, and I think ultimately that that opens up the door for so many other people with disabilities. And whether that's a little people or or, you know, you name it with different disabilities, I think that that great telling your own story is the best way to get authentic representation.
Jillian Curwin: So much of what you said…One, I love The Station Agent. I think it is a fantastic film. If you have not seen it, I cannot recommend it enough. It is so good. I highly recommend. And you know, I think, you know, I think like what you said, like creating your own work… And one thing I think of, and I don't know why this came to my head, and it's not disability representation, but it's about telling our stories, like America’s, and what started out as just one idea and it literally grew to dominate the entertainment industry is a show like Hamilton where you saw he performed the first song he's like, “I had a song,” that was it. And then he turned it into, [unintelligible], turn it into the mix tape and then the musical and… what is so important is that he told this story that is set in the past, but with what America looks like now. That being said, I would love, one day, because America has disability…disabled people in it, would love to see disabled actors in it. I think disabled actors would be amazing in it. Lin-Manuel Miranda, if you're listening, let's put some disabled actors in it. But I think, you know, and audiences went along for the ride. They said, yes, like, we're going to, we, you know, this is us. Like this is a part of who we are. And I think it shows that, like, it can be this crazy idea of telling American history with rap battles and, you know - It's just doing one song and turning it into a mixtape and then look what happens.
Nic Novicki: Yeah, no, I think that that's…You hit the nail on the head, too, that this is somebody, Lin-Manuel, who time and time again, he just told the song story. You always if you're, if you're an aspiring actor, or writer, or producer, or somebody that you know that that's interested in the entertainment industry or even being a writer, tell your story.Ultimately like that, you have the ability to use your experience. Nobody else has that, that, you know, ability. Lin-Manuel, In the Heights, like, you know, he was able to talk about gentrification and things that he saw on elements that other people don't have. So that is your superhero power - to be able to talk about things that other people can't.
So, I think the closer you can get to be able to, to tell your story and, and lived experience, like that's where you're going to run into these kind of breakaway hits or lead to other opportunities because Hamilton wasn't the first thing. I mean, it was amazing…
Jillian Curwin: No.
Nic Novicki: And it was such a great representation. But he was able to get there by telling his story and using his experience through In the Heights - to be able to use that as a calling card, to be able to get in the door and not only get in the door, but just win every award possible and have everybody in Hollywood and, and audiences from around the world want to see something they haven't seen.
Jillian Curwin: Right. I think, and you can correct like -, the audience, if they love the story, if they're like, like once they're in, they're in. So, it's all about the power of telling a good story. And it doesn't… it shouldn't matter who's telling it. If it, you know, like we should want to see authentic voices writing these stories, directing these stories, creating stories, but also authentic representation on screen as well.
Kind of going back to the beginning of our conversation, you know, it would like, you know, I can only imagine now what the character Toulouse would look like and what that would have meant to see a little person in that role. Because, you know, prior to that, it was before Peter Dinklage became Peter Dinklage so little person representation really wasn't there. And so I’m wondering like, what would… if Moulin Rouge was actually…if Toulouse was played by little person, what would that have meant? Because this was a real person, rooted in history, it wasn't a munchkin, it wasn't an elf, it wasn't a character in Lord of the Rings. Like this was a real person.
Nic Novicki: Yeah. And, you know, to me, to be honest, I, I don't know necessarily that fantasy roles are, are bad. I mean, to me, it's like…
Jillian Curwin: No.
Nic Novicki: It's all about more to me… I'm, I'm more focused on like, what more can we do? What more kind of interesting stories can be told? And, and I will say that, you know, there was a lot of talented little people actors and, you know, Billy Barty, who founded Little People of America. I mean, it was a tour de force and working from silent film till a short film. So before Peter Dinklage, there was a lot of great actors and are lot of great little people, actors working today: Danny Woodburn from Seinfeld, Mark Povinelli, as we talked about, such a talented actor and I believe he actually played Toulouse-Lautrec in a play. By bringing everything around…
Jillian Curwin: Oh!
Nic Novicki: I, you know, I didn't do a ton of research right before on Toulouse-Lautrec and I could be wrong. And our friend Mark may be like, “Nic what are you talking about?” But I'm almost positive he played Toulouse-Lautrec at the, at the Kennedy Center uhh… not the Kennedy Center…. A very fancy place. Anyways I… I'm making everything up. I'm like, yeah my my uncle played Toulouse-Lautrec also. No.
But, but all I'm saying is that there is a lot of talent out there beyond Peter Dinklage. But I think Peter Dinklage just is, is an example of somebody, you know, I think of all the people with disabilities that just exploded the most. Whether you're talking about little people or just, just as actor in general, he's just such an amazing actor, you know? And I think roles are, are not, you know, now he's just there's, there's… The way it works inside the studio system and inside movies are you know this great writer wrote Rush Hour, as an example, or Lord of the Rings or Avatar. And now he has another movie, or she has this other movie that she's already written. And it's great. And there'sm there's a role we'd like to have Meryl Streep for. And then there's all these other roles and Peter Dinklage, they, they're just going to him for certain roles, not about him being a little person. They're just like, oh, he's a great actor, and he should play this president of the United States the role that usually Morgan Freeman was up for. And now it's like he's in that category. So, and you know, and you know that, that, that's changing and the door is opening up for a lot of actors with disabilities. But sure, I mean, there, there, there's a lot more room to grow, no pun intended, for little people to be included, but, but also for just disability representation as a whole.
Jillian Curwin: Agreed. And I'm not putting down the fantasy roles. I think it’s… I do that sometimes, but it's more because I want to see little people being able to tell stories where we are human, to kind of push past that. Not saying that these roles, you know, and you could kind of in a way, even though he's a human like, you can kind of put Tyrion in that fantastical world, but that's like one of the most iconic little person characters, but like they were a real person.
So, like, that's like, I would just, I want to see more of that, but you kind of set something, so I kind of then want to ask… Yeah, go ahead.
Nic Novicki: No. But I think the interesting thing here too is if you look at what kind of movies are being made, regardless of, you know, being a little person or disability, the only movies that are being made are like fantastical movies and superhero movies and, you know, the like romantic comedies and, you know, dramas are really just not being made, aside from disability representation as a whole.
So, I think in, something to me that's also is important is to make sure that, you know, people with disabilities are, are still able to be included. I don't think that if we have, that we have to have somebody who's not a little person, you know, playing somebody who's, you know. So I don't know. This is a, this could be a four-hour discussion. Hey, all, all in two films. But to me, I know for myself as an actor, I like to look at like really the three dimensional, like, character and like, what is this role in the depiction? And I think I have my own moral compass about like kind of projects that I want to be involved in, in. And I think sometimes too that I've, I've been able to talk to directors and talk to producers and kind of change, you know, narrative in a bit. And I'm like instead of, you know, a joke landing sort of at me, what if we were to change it? It's like now we're, we're talking the joke is, is I'm in on the joke. I'm involved in the joke. I'm telling a joke. I'm responding to it. And I think that that's important.
And I think that we shouldn't, you know, I think it's important to have dialog and to go back and forth because we don't want to, you know, scare people away in certain areas. And I think that, that when you're able to be involved in very big productions, very big TV shows, very big movies, sometimes that opens up the door for you to be able to tell your own Station Agent or your own, you know, Coda, I guess. I mean, Coda is an example that where, you know, I mean that more relevant I think because it just happened and it's like it just won the Academy Award and it's fully like disabled cast. Yeah. You know, and so I think it's like, you know, you need to be able to work with A-list directors and writers and producers. And so, I think, I think a lot of times it is important to, to have as a part of the discussion and in the conversation. But also, it is important for, for us as artists and for us as writers to, to have our own projects and our own kind of calling cards ready to go. Alright? Even if you're not going to produce it yet, be thinking about what would you want to do? What would the ultimate role be for me or for this wheelchair user or, you know, this blind actress or writer like, and start about what that project is. Because I think we… the longer you stay in the entertainment industry and especially if you work hard and you keep, you know, doing the work, writing, taking acting classes, you're going to get those opportunities. And so I think you want to be ready for when that opportunity comes. And also, continue to develop and have those projects ready.
Jillian Curwin: Could not agree more.
So then I want to ask you, you know, you're approaching ten years of the film challenge. Where do you see the film challenge going in the next ten years? And how do you see what happens there affecting the industry?
Nic Novicki: Yeah, I'm very proud. Honestly. Ten years ago, when I created the Disability Film Challenge, I never would have thought that ten years later there is, like, we would be where we are - the growth of it or how much of, you know, my life would be kind of devoted to this, but I'm so proud of it and it's a collective effort, you know. I… there are a lot of people that put a lot of hard work, you know. My partner in Easterseals, Southern California, when they came in in 2017, have really been a big part of the growth. And, you know, I'm very proud of the fact that this has opened up the doors and given sort of a, a jump into people's careers where, where they're able to tell their own stories.
And so in, in the next ten years, I want to continue to see films being made. I want to continue to see more entries. But also, I'd love to see some of these films be made into TV shows and to feature films. We've already started to see that where people are turning their projects into larger, you know, series and films. But [cough] excuse me, but I'm excited to continue to see that growth. [cough] Sorry.
Jillian Curwin: I'm excited as well. And I think it'll happen. I think, I think we're, again, we're not getting there maybe as fast as some other marginalized communities, but we're getting there. And I think that's, you know, makes the film challenge so important as that you're giving the disabled community creators the opportunity to tell their stories and use their voices to do it. So, I'm very excited to see what happens and the changes that happen in the industry because of it…
Nic Novicki: Well, you know…
Jillian Curwin: To see what these new creators really…
Nic Novicki: Yeah, no I…
Jillian Curwin: To see what they create. Go ahead.
Nic Novicki: Absolutely. I mean, I'm, I'm so excited for what they create. And, you know, beyond the film challenge itself, you know, we do workshops and seminars and screenings throughout the year. And professional development is very important too to be able to learn from other, you know, executives and people that are writers, or they’re editors, and to be able to get one-on-one and, you know, and then be able to use their film: “Hey, you know, actually, I made this film. Can you have any advice?” Or now they're able to use their films as a way, you know, to build up their IMDb profile or to share a link of something that they've done. But also, ultimately, this is a relationship driven business. You are going to get jobs from work you do. And so, the, the biggest challenge has always been how do you get into the dance, you know? And, and I think… I'm very proud of the fact that people have been able to use their experience of making a film to, to, to get into the dance and then to continue to dance from there. Now I'm going to do another film, or another web series, or I'm doing this, or we're going to do a feature film together and sort of it becomes like a web, you know, for, using Spider-Man as like an example, but you're kind of shooting from project to project and, you know, much less similar to how people do with jobs. You know, hey, I got this one job and I'm, now I'm working here.
But I think the film industry that's, that's how you get your jobs and how build your network. And, you know, this is, this is a marathon, you know, so, you know, I've been in this business for over 20 years. So there's people that I started working with, you know, early in my career and we're still working together, and now they're at this company or they're helping with the challenge or they're mentoring or they're doing, you know. So, so many times it's about building your, your web and then using those people to, to, to get you jobs and also for you to return the favor when you can or, or hire people because you, we always want to work with people we know because there's a familiarity.
Jillian Curwin: Yeah, couldn't agree more. And again like, I'm excited to see what these, what the next ten years brings and who these creators are and seeing them come into their own and seeing them make an impact on the industry. Because I think… I think it's happening. I do think, and like you said, like you've seen the successes already, but it's happening. And I think it's about time.
Who do you look up to?
Nic Novicki: I mean there's… I would say there's so many, you know, role models and, and people that are my friends, my family, my wife, you know, really. I talked about Billy Barty earlier. You know, I would say that's somebody, too, who's a huge influence in my life. I met him when I was a kid at a Little People conference, my first conference, and he took a photo with me and, you know, he created the Little People of America. He worked his entire life in the entertainment industry and frankly, he worked during a time which was much tougher than it is now. You know, in terms of representation, whether you have a disability or regardless, I mean, like, you're talking about, you know, women on screen event or, you know, like… He worked in a different time and he did so much and he really impacted so many other people, you know, both little people and people in the disability community.
And, you know, I would say there's a lot of people I look up to, you know, and, and, and I feel very honored to, to have so many people help me and be there for the film challenge. And it's important for me to, to pay it forward and to be there for other people and, and be there as a mentor, whether that's at a Little People conference or DAAA, which had a huge, huge part of me, like… As a kid, being able to play sports was against other people my size was, was a huge confidence booster for me. And, you know, so now going back and being able to coach, you know, kids’ basketball teams and things like that, like it's, it's a huge, you know, part of my life, too. And I, I didn't make this conference, but I get just as into it now. You know, I feel like I'm Pat Riley out there, you know, and I coach and I go, “Come on! We got to get-!” You know, it's just it's exciting, you know…
Jillian Curwin: Yes. Yes!
Nic Novicki: I just you know, we…It’s, it's evolution. You know, when people help you, you should think about what you could do for others, you know? And I think, you know, the more you're doing to help other people, honestly, it leads to opportunities for you, too. It shouldn't be about that. But, you know, I think the more you do, the more opportunities that come out there. And so, whether that's mentoring or, or working in general, I think something else to, to point out, again, for people listening that maybe want to get involved in the entertainment industry, you know, don't be afraid to help out in a lot of different areas, especially when you're getting started. You know, if you want to be a producer, you know, just be a part of productions on every level - be a PA, be an assistant. How can I help this person who's an editor? The more experience you have and the more opportunity that you give yourself to learn trades and to learn skills, the more useful you're going to be towards other projects, but also the more network you're going to have. Because the end of the day, this is a relationship driven business.
Jillian Curwin: Love, love that. Are there any questions I have not asked that you would like to answer?
Nic Novicki: No. I mean, I'm, I'm open to talking about more, but I mean, I, this was just such a fun discussion. And, you know, as I said, I'm a fan of, of this podcast and the way that you kind of bring the community together. So, you know, thank you so much for having me on and, and for everything you do.
Jillian Curwin: Thank you. And we’re definitely having you back. This is not the end of our conversation. Don't worry.
Nic Novicki: Well, we'll see, maybe John…
Jillian Curwin: You said it a little bit at the beginning. But I just kind of want…
Nic Novicki: Maybe, maybe John Leguizamo is going to play Peter Dinklage and, you know, is, is going to probably…
Jillian Curwin: If that happens you are definitely coming back on.
You said so before but I want to give you this opportunity again to say where people can follow you, can be up to date on the film challenge can find out more information.
Nic Novicki: Yes. So, on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook, you can follow me @nicnovicki, that's no “K” in Nic, N-O-V-I-C-K-I, and also you can follow @disabilityfilmchallenge on Instagram and Facebook and @disabilitychall on Twitter. But if you go to disabilityfilmchallenge.com, you can learn more information about the Easterseals Disability Film Challenge, get involved, come to our events, our workshops, our screenings and enter.
We will be opening up submissions soon for the 10th Annual Film Challenge, which will be happening in 2023. So, I am feeling old saying that out loud, but I'm feeling so much love and support and… I appreciate you so much for having me on. And you know, here's to John Leguizamo and, and, and that Peter Dinklage…
Jillian Curwin: Yes, he made it happen again. Go, go follow. I'll have links for all of the accounts to follow in the show notes as well as links to the website. So go check it out. And especially if you're a disabled creator, you know, check it out and see if this is something you want to participate in. I'm sure, you know, it sounds like a great opportunity.
Final thing. I do icebreakers at the end because I think it's more fun that way.
Nic Novicki: Yeah.
Jillian Curwin: So I have, I have five categories and I just want to hear your favorite in each one. First is favorite book.
Nic Novicki: I love Steve Martin's bio, you know, his autobiography, Born Standing Up. It's so great. It talks a lot about, you know, what it's like to be a comedian and to see his rise. I just love that book so much. And I love him as, as an artist and as a person.
Jillian Curwin: Love that. Umm favorite TV show.
Nic Novicki: I would have to say The Sopranos, you know, and I'm, I’m a little biased because I got to be on it. But no, I was on it. I was in a small role, but it was a cool role. I got to play like a nightclub manager that had nothing to do with me being a little person. And you know, it was really awesome, especially something to happen so early in my career. But as a whole, I just think that was the best show ever.
With other, other shows I would say Seinfeld and Breaking Bad's up there and, you know, and the theme, they all have great disability representation, those other shows. Not so much... I mean, you know, it's… I'm going too far in here.
Jillian Curwin: No. But I think a lot of people, myself included, would agree that The Sopranos is one of the best shows of all time. So totally, totally aligned with that.
Favorite drink.
Nic Novicki: Coffee. I, I like staying hydrated and I like caffeine. So, I wear a lot of hats…
Jillian Curwin: Well, there you go.
Nic Novicki: I have a baby. So coffee is my friend.
Jillian Curwin: Perfect. Favorite piece of advice you've ever given.
Nic Novicki: You know, I guess you would have to ask other people, but for me, all I know is, like, just… Yeah, just do as much as you can, you know, on your own. Don't wait for other people.
Jillian Curwin: I love it. That's also the first time somebody said that, you're going to have to ask someone else. I think that’s so true. I think that's such… yeah, I never thought of that. So that's really smart.
Last one. Favorite piece of advice you've ever received.
Nic Novicki: You know, I think just, in passing, I heard somebody, and they were just talking about the biggest thing is like, execution. And you just, you just have to you could talk about wanting to do things forever, but eventually you just have to pull the trigger and say, I'm going to do it. I'm going to pull the trigger on, you know, and that, that can be for a variety of different things - like your project and entertainment industry, on applying for a new job, on getting a house or an apartment. It's, it’s about, like, execution and just saying, I'm going to do it. And then and then just doing it. It's kind of vague. But I heard it once and was like, oh, that's something that resonated.
Jillian Curwin: I think that's so true. And I think that's a perfect note end on. Nic, thank you again so much for coming on. I know we kind of arranged this really quickly, so thank you for taking the time and having this great conversation. Again, this is just the beginning of this conversation I want to have with you on this podcast. So, you are welcome to come back.
Final, final thing I have to ask is just, in your most badass voice possible to remind my listeners that height is just a number, not a limit.
Nic Novicki: Height is just a number, not a limit.
Jillian Curwin: Always Looking Up is hosted by Jillian Curwin and edited and produced by Ben Curwin. Please make sure to rate, review, and subscribe, and follow on Spotify so that you never miss an episode. Follow me on Instagram @jill_ilana and the podcast @alwayslookingup.podcast for updates and check out my blog JillianIlana.com for more content about what it is like to be a little person in an average sized world.
Thanks for listening. See you next week.
Listen To Always Looking Up:
Follow Nic:
Follow Disability Film Challenge:
