Rebecca Williford On DRA And Changing The Fabric Of Society

ID: A head shot of Rebecca, a woman with shoulder length brown hair, smiling, sitting in her power chair. She is wearing a black blazer over a red dress. Overlaid is the text “Always Looking Up, Episode 158 -> Rebecca Williford, DRA And Changing The Fabric Of Society”

Jillian: Hi everyone! Welcome to Always Looking Up, the podcast where no one is overlooked and height is only a number, never a limit, hosted by me, Jillian Curwin. Each week I will be having a conversation about what it is like to live in a world that is not necessarily designed for you.In this week's episode, I sat down with Rebecca Williford.

Rebecca is a seasoned, nationally recognized disability community leader and an ardent disability rights litigator, currently serving as the president and CEO of Disability Rights Advocates, or DRA, the leading national non-profit disability rights legal center, whose mission is to advance the rights, inclusion, and equity of people with disabilities through high impact litigation, education, and advocacy.

We discuss the role legal action plays in the disability rights movement, how DRA is changing the fabric of society and what it means to be a disabled person, and much, much more. Let's get into it.

Hi Rebecca.

Rebecca: Hi, Jillian. I'm so excited to be here with you on your podcast today. Thank you.

Jillian: I'm so excited to have you on the podcast and I'm extra excited because by the time my audience is listening to this, it will most likely be July, which is Disability Pride Month, which I think that makes it all the more perfect.

Rebecca: It's so exciting. You know, we're celebrating 34 years this year and boy, have we come a long way, but boy, do we have a long way to go.

Jillian: Yes, we do. And I think that's the topic of today's conversation. So we'll get into it um, first by asking you to tell my listeners who may not know who you are, who may not be familiar with the work that you do, a little bit about yourself.

Rebecca: Great. Happy to. So my name is Rebecca Williford. I am a lawyer and I'm the president and CEO of Disability Rights Advocates and becoming a lawyer and running Disability Rights Advocates or DRA, which is a national non profit legal center, was never the plan. Uh, disability was the furthest thing from my mind until it became exactly what I wanted to do and what I'm today very, very motivated and driven to do. And I'm excited to spend some time with you talking about how I got there and how my story is wound up with, uh, just the Aries story, but I grew up in North Carolina and I went to law school there. And I moved to Berkeley 15 years ago so, birthplace of disability rights movement.

Um, I use a wheelchair. I acquired my disability as a teenager. Um, and that, um, throughout high school is my disability…I went from having a non apparent disability to using a wheelchair due to, um, a neurological disorder and a series of infections that cause nerve damage, um, and, you know, that, that eventually would lead me to my career in law, which I am happy to, to talk about.

Jillian: Yeah. I was gonna say, like, I don't think I know…I mean, we've met a couple of times and, um, had great conversations, but umm, don't think I know your story in terms of like becoming a lawyer and all that, so I'm really excited to really delve into that and see kind of how you found your way to, to Disability Rights Advocates and the work that you're doing.

Um, but before we do that, I do want to ask this question I ask my guests and that is, how do you define being disabled?

Rebecca: So I define disabled, uh, being disabled for me means, let me rephrase that. Um, for me, being disabled is a natural part of the human experience. And it is a lens through which I view the world.

I've got one foot in the legal world and one foot in the disability world. And those worlds often aren't communicating with each other. And so I find myself doing a lot of translating and evangelizing across those, those lines.

Jillian: I, I find that interesting, and the, the idea of there's like being different worlds, because I think it's very true that I think we kind of exist as, you know, disabled people just like living lives within like, in the roles that we're in. It does feel like that you are kind of crossing over into a different area where there are different demands on you, and different expectations, and also, whether you're the first or only disabled person in that space, and how do you then make the space accessible for you, and also kind of a sense of sometimes like having to prove that you belong there because there are other disabled people in that space to kind of like…so people don't think that it's possible…I don't know if I'm phrasing that correctly, but it's like… yeah.

Rebecca: No, I know what you're saying is that there aren't nearly enough disabled lawyers and people with disabilities in the legal profession generally. And so you often are the only one and you often are feeling like you are carrying a torch and hopefully we're making it better for the next generation, but it's, it can be tough.

Jillian: What inspired you to pursue a career in law? Did you always want to be a lawyer?

Rebecca: I did not always want to be a lawyer. If you had asked me when I was, you know, 18, I wanted to be a doctor at some point. I love animals. And so I probably also wanted to be a vet at some point. Um, I guess I've fulfilled that need by having three cats, um, now in my adult life. I didn't become a vet.

Um, but like I said, becoming a lawyer was, was the furthest thing, um, from my mind. I think, throughout high school, my disability was evolving. I was contending with a lot of medical appointments, missing a lot of school, um, you know, needing accommodations to get through school, hospitalizations.

And so it was also seeing things from the healthcare access perspective. Um, and at that point in life as a teenager, nobody told me about disability rights or civil rights. Um, I was, you know, very much having a, a medical experience. I was often, you know, the only disabled person or, or one of a few. Um, and I think my experience of seeing how hard my parents and I had to advocate on so many fronts, um, and meeting others, other, you know, other, other teenagers, usually in medical centers, um, who were going through similar experiences of becoming disabled and trying to figure out how are you going to navigate the world as a newly disabled person. Um, what does that mean? Um, so all of that exposed me to a completely new universe.

Um, and it's not a universe I knew anything about and it's a universe where I very quickly saw that so much advocacy for the most basic rights was desperately needed and all of that really ignited something in me and during college, you know, I was able to, you know, with a lot of support and planning, you know, live independently in college, you know, with help coming in when I needed it.

But, um, you know, I thought a lot about different ways that I could be a part of this advocacy that was needed. Um, and I couldn't stop thinking about all that I had been exposed to, all the people that I had met, and all that needed to happen in society to level the playing field for people with disabilities.

And that's also when I began to meet other people with disabilities, I began to fully embrace disability as part of my identity and I felt comfortable claiming it as something that I was proud of, um, and then I, you know, I became more and more involved in the disability community and I realized that, that becoming a lawyer would, would allow me to do a range of advocacy and put a lot of good into a segment of society that needed it pretty badly.

Um, you know, all these people that were experiencing discrimination in every sphere of life because of their disability, umm, and I started, as I met other disabled people, I started to learn about ways that lawyers were helping people, um, in the disability access and the healthcare space and how critical that was, you know, especially at that age, college, you know. People are looking at grad school, people are trying to get accommodations for standardized tests and, you know, all of these sort of, you know, gatekeepers to, you know, employment and professional goals, um, sort of, you know…The promise of the ADA that, you know, people with disabilities, you know, um, you know, we're going to be represented in all, all segments of society.

Um, you know, and I, I, I watched some people, uh, who were able to get lawyers and get their testing accommodations and they were able to go on to school and do well, and I watched others struggle to get help with testing accommodations. I watched them, you know, not be able to afford a lawyer. Um, and they, they struggled and, and for a lot of them, the path was, was much, much harder.

And so, you know, all of this helped me realize that legal action really does play an important role in empowerment and enforcing rights. And I decided I really wanted to be a part of work that was moving the ball forward. I wasn't that sure at that point…I wasn't quite sure exactly how, but I knew something in disability, disability rights law or disability policy is, is what I wanted to sort of, you know, make my life's work. Um, and I wanted to do it in a really systemic way that would shake things up for the better. Um, and so that's what led me to, to go to law school, um, and, and eventually to, to DRA.

Jillian: That is…there's so much of that that resonates, um, in the sense of the struggles that like I…or the barriers that I had to deal with in college, and I graduated, um, relatively, uh, like if, uh, 2019, I graduated college. I just think about like, um, and in dealing with the office of disability services and dealing with professors who, you know, and this, at that point, the ADA was almost 30 years old. It had been established.

I don't know. I was going to ask that. I don't like When you're going, like when you were coming up, when you were going to law school and everything, how old or how young was the ADA to kind of put in perspective of…?

Rebecca: Yeah, so the ADA was in effect. So my, so my disability kicked in, in 1994. So, um, you know, and, and, and that's, you know, when, and that, that was the beginning and it was sort of, you know, years before I, you know, really began to, you know, I was, I was certainly, you know, I had a 504 plan in school and I was, um, but it didn't, I didn't really make that connection to like, hey, you're part of the community.

Um, you know, also when, when a disability begins as a sort of…the way mine did as sort of a medical mystery, where no one knows the answer, um, of course, for years, it was like, “Oh, we're going to…we're going to cure you,” um, which is a whole other, a whole other rabbit hole. Um, but you know, uh, you, you know, as, as things sort of settled out over the years, it became, it was very clear it was disability.

So, um, the ADA was certainly in effect and 504 was, was as well.

Jillian: Um, and that does like help putting it in perspective because it still feels like even though the ADA is older, it's gone through, we said 34 years this year it still feels like the same people have to still have the same battles with enforcing it, with having it enforced, with having it protect them.

Um, and that's not just only to the ADA I think also like with, again, like having a 504 plan followed or having an IEP followed, and it's just, I think that it's, I mean…It says something that like, these laws have been in place for at least 30 years and yet we're still having to, we're still hearing about individuals having to really fight to have their rights and…

Rebecca: I think a lot of that is what drew me to DRA. There are so many wonderful disability rights organizations um, they're doing great work um, and at, at DRA, our superpower is impact litigation. Um, and our, our history is really intertwined with, um, passage of the ADA in 1990. So our founders recognized the need to enforce the ADA in order to tackle the systemic barriers that were out there. Um, so they started DRA in 1993, that was three years after ADA was passed, you know.

They started DRA in Berkeley, um, birthplace of disability rights movement, the perfect place for, for the organization to begin. And today we've expanded and we're very much a nationwide organization. As you know, I run into you in New York, um folks in Chicago are also like, “Do you live here? Um, you have offices, um, in, in New York and Chicago today?” And we do, we do work all over the country. We've got, um, 30 people. Um, but we, we really have established ourselves as the legal arm of the disability community when it comes to, to fighting systemic discrimination.

Jillian: Um, and from your perspective…? Yeah.

Rebecca: So, and it's, you know, we represent people with disability, people with all types of disabilities nationwide. So, you know, even from the beginning, we were doing cases in Hawaii, Alaska, Boston, and then we're also doing points in between, you know, we, we've done a case in my homeland, in North Carolina, Tennessee, um, you know, we team up with, with local, local council, um, to, to do, to do these cases.

Jillian: That's, I mean, it's such important and incredible work. And I remember when we, at the night where we met, um, at the gala, I like…just listening to the cases that you were trying, to [the] impact that you were making across the country…It was really empowering being in that room and just kind of hearing, just, like, seeing, like, from the advocates, like, what the, like, what the work is actually being done, and and it's, like, something empowering about, like, me, and, like, hearing about these cases from all across the country and recognizing that this is not limited to any specific area. Like, disability impacts, you know, is everywhere.

It is a part of the fabric of the country, and our rights have to be enforced.

Rebecca: Absolutely. There, I mean, one thing I always say about our work is that we never get bored. There's no area of life that disability doesn't touch where access is important. And you know, our work, as you know, ranges from access to healthcare, employment, transportation, emergency preparedness, education, uh, the rights of people who are incarcerated.

So I mean, you name it, it's, it's out there. And, you know, we also, as, as society evolves and life happens are, you know, we stay vigilant to, you know, to things like, you know, during COVID it was, uh, you know, the height of the pandemic was a terrible reminder that people with disabilities are often the first to get left behind.

Um, and so, you know, we were trying to be responsive to, to that work. And we, you know, did some work and we got, you know, ummm, tens of thousands of people released from ICE detention who were at, um, heightened risk for, um, for COVID because of their disability. Ummm, so we, we try to stay vigilant to that. We try to stay vigilant to these new technologies that are coming online.

And the first thing I always say is, is it going to be accessible for people using assistive technology? Um, so…yes, every segment of society.

Jillian: It's everywhere. Um, and so I'm curious, like from your perspective, what do you perceive to be the biggest barriers the disability community has to face, particularly in this post-ADA world where I think there's this misconception from society at large that the ADA kind of was a be-all end-all solution and, or like, the end point for the disability rights movement.

Rebecca: Right. So I think there's a few different barriers. I mean, one of them is, you know, one, one barrier that we're still fighting is, is ableism. It's…Ableism is alive and well, and society needs to get better at, at recognizing it and, uh, recognizing it. That's like number one. I think we're in a…I think a lot of people don't even know what ableism is.

Um, so I think getting better at recognizing it and naming it and fighting against it. I think attitudes are some of the greatest barriers. And, uh, they don't cost anything to fix. So, by way of example, I'm, I'm a trial lawyer by trade and the disability coordinators at two different courts, when I've been called in for jury duty, have told me I'm too disabled to be on the jury and that people like me, literally their words, shouldn't be on juries. And they've taken it a step further and they've given me, you know, a letter saying, this is your lifetime exemption from jury duty in this court and it's completely count, it's…It's horrible. Completely counter to how our justice system should operate

Jillian: If…

Rebecca: If at least some courts are out of the gate, turning away potential jurors solely because of their disability. So if that's happening to me, um, we have big problems.

Jillian: I just, I mean, for those, who were listening, and I know this is an audio podcast, so you couldn't see, like, when she said, like, my mouth dropped, um, and again, coming, like, from the daughter of two prosecutors who is kind of, like, grew up or, like, listened to my parents talk about the work that they did on a daily basis and talk about jury selection, and they would kind of tell me, be like, I want you to get picked, but, like, I don't know if you will because you are the daughter of prosecutors, but, depending on the case, um, I, but I think….like….that's just…like, that's not like…People will say, like, jury, they don't want to get picked, but that's not like, that's not okay that they just were like, you don't ever have to get called because you're disabled. Like…

Rebecca: Right. And sort of the, you know, reading between the lines, they're kind of like, oh, you know, we don't want to burden you. It's this whole….

Jillian: Right.

Rebecca Williford: Charity, pity, model. “Oh, you, you're so burdened by your disability, you know, let's, let's take this, let's take this off you….Jury duty.” But, you know, in so doing, you, you know, you're actually doing more harm than good.

Jillian: Right. Well, it's also like you're, you know, a jury is supposed to be made up of a, you know, of, of someone's peers, and our peers are disabled, like disability is here. You can't just try to say that, no, like you can't exclude a class of people because you, you know, for whatever reason or however you try to justify it.

Because that, that does also then create an unfair jury pool,

Rebecca: Right. You, you know, how is a disabled person supposed to get a jury of their peers if, if their peers are not there?

Jillian: Right.

Rebecca: Um, or….So, we have able…and that's just one example. Um, I know you, you encounter it all the time. We all do.

Jillian: Yeah.

Rebecca: Um, Questions about what we can and can't do.

Um, as people with disabilities, um, you know, also the, you know, the experience of no matter who I am out to dinner with, you know, no, no one will bring me the check. Um, they don't want to give it to the person in the wheelchair. They just, they, they really don't want to. Um, so things like that.

Um, and I think, I think also one barrier that I worry a lot, um, you know, is, is advocacy fatigue. I don't know if that's, that's the right word, but people with disabilities are asked to do a lot to enforce their rights. And it's all the time. You, you don't get a break. You don't get a holiday. Even when you go on vacation, you run into barriers, you're in a new place, you know, things happen. Um, and so you can't, you can never really, you know, get, get a break from that.

And one way I see that playing out in the legal system is that disabled people are having to, you know, re-litigate issues that we already litigated and got successful results in many. So there's this need for, for constant vigilance and the way our cases work, because there are these big, you know, impact cases as we’ll, you know, we get a result and then, um, as the entity who is, you know, been ordered to, you know, fix barriers, fixes barriers, you know, that often takes many, many years. And so, um, the court still has jurisdiction over the case, which means we can go back to court if, um, you know, if things aren't going well with implementation.

Um, but, you know, that period eventually ends. It doesn't last forever. Sometimes it's one year. Sometimes it's 30 years, just depending on how big the barriers are and how long it's going to take to fix them. Um, but when, as soon as that period ends, we're, we, we often see, you know, entities, you know, especially if it was, you know, a policy or something like that, they're not, you know, typically not going to undo accessible ramps that they built, but, um, right.

You know we, we see that happening and we, you know, we're for instance, we’re, we're re-litigating a case against Hertz, um, about hand controls on rental vehicles. Um, we did many years ago, and we're, um, we, we brought that case again. So, sort of, once an entity isn't under that, that microscope, um, you know, they can be backsliding, and that is, you know, that could be, you know, exhausting and it's, it's a barrier and I think, you know, it's just something, something that I, I think about a lot and that, that, that worries me.

Jillian: Yeah, I didn't…that's something I was aware, but didn't really like, think about when like, asking that question. I think both of your answers, I think are not what I was expecting.

And I mean that in a good way, because I think it kind of just shows that we…all in this community, like there's still a lot to learn. Like, I think it's good to hear like, the barriers that I think of, I think, we often think of these barriers as like physical. We can see them. We can touch them. We can kind of…it's easy to call out, but it really is the, um, what's more under the surface or what's more hidden that is actually the bigger barriers to getting these, um, that we have to deal with, that we have to…I don't want to say overcome, but like to have to fight against, um…

Rebecca: So it just, it takes constant vigilance.

And I think that's one reason I'm so grateful for everyone in the disability community and like, the strength of the community, um, the resilience of the community. Um, it's, uh, it's, uh, it's really important, uh, especially, especially these days.

Jillian: Yeah. Um, before we get more into the work that Disability Rights Advocates, and the work that you do specifically, you mentioned a lot, the term like impact litigation.

And I kind of want to, um, ask you to kind of explain like, what is the difference in regards to impact and, um, between passing legislation such as Section 504 and the ADA, as we all saw Crip Camp, and seeing the disability rights movement to get this legislation passed versus fighting these cases, these disability rights cases in court and the work that DRA is doing.

Rebecca: Yeah. So might be helpful if I back up a little bit and just talk about the, the role of impact litigation. Um, so I think so the role of, of litigation and, especially impact litigation, um, has a really important place in the disability rights movement. And when, um, you know, there's direct service work, which is, you know, individuals who need representation, um, for, for, um, It's a very specific situations.

Um, but when we're talking about impact work we're, we're talking about moving mountains and creating social change and, 99 percent of the time, the biggest barriers are only going to be, you know, fixed with a court order. And I think that's because, you know, accessibility is not, it's not one of the things that, you know, businesses, municipalities, et cetera, are always thinking about when they're creating new structures and systems and people with disabilities, even though they make up the world's largest minority are often overlooked.

And if accessibility isn't baked in, it can be really expensive to tack on. And, you know, that's where high impact litigation comes in, um, because not making things accessible is, is illegal. And we need a judge to say that an entity has to fix certain barriers by a certain date and if not, you'll be back in court. So, um, you know, it's about, about accountability.

Um, but in terms of the, um, the, you want to go back to your question about, you know, having, having a law on the books versus, um, you know, litigation, I think, you know…The ADA is, is a very robust, you know, federal statute that's on the books. It was, you know, when it was passed, uh, you know, a bipartisan recognition by Congress that people with disabilities were facing so much discrimination that they needed, um, a federal law to, to recognize that and to provide ways uh, provide a way to enforce rights.

Um, and this is, you know, the ADA, you know, would be a law that went beyond the Rehab Act…

Jillian: Mm-Hmm.

Rebecca: Which, which, you know, only applied to federally funded programs and beyond the IDEA, which, you know, provides education rights. Um, you know, it was, you know, a law that would, um, and, you know, provide, you know, and, and, you know, make, make illegal discrimination in public and private entities, employment, transportation, technology.

Um, Um, but the way the ADA is, is written, it was, um, very, in very general terms. And those, I think what's so important about litigation is that it's taken litigation to define the ADA over the years. Um, so for example, um, you're familiar with Olmstead, but for, for listeners who aren't, who aren't familiar with Olmstead, that happened because of litigation. Um, and for those who aren't familiar, Um, Olmsted was the case that laid the foundation to get a lot of disabled people, um, who could be living in the community out of institutions and, and living in the community. But it took a case that was litigated all the way to the Supreme Court to get the ruling that states shouldn't be, you know…They should eliminate the unnecessary segregation of disabled people and ensure that, um, people are getting services in the most integrated setting possible.

Um, you know, so the ADA, you know, as, as written doesn't say, “Hey, this is, you know, if you live in an institution, activate this section to get out.” Um, lawyers reading, reading the law, looking at a, you know, a rampant problem that was happening in this country and saying this law applies to that, like, let's, you know, bring, let's bring this case and let's litigate it, you know, in this case, all the way to the Supreme Court.

Um, you know, and, and that's how you start to get definition, um, you know, on the ADA. So the statute on the books is great and it takes amazing policy folks and experts of all kinds to get laws passed. But then once you get to that stage, you need…That's where DRA picks up the baton and we are enforcing the rights, um, on, on, on a, on a broad scale.

Um, and I think when you also think about, you know, the internet, the internet wasn't around in 1990. And so the ADA doesn't say, “And now the internet shall be accessible.” You know, the ADA talks about places of public accommodation and, you know, through, through litigation, um, um, you know, the legal requirements for more internet access have, have evolved and they've improved and we've established a lot and we're also fighting to hold on to a lot of ground that we've gained, um…

DRA brought one of the early cases against Target.com and websites needed to be accessible when they were tied to bricks and mortar facilities. Um, and then, if you fast forward to today, and some jurisdictions that has expanded and requires websites not tied to physical locations to also be accessible. So, for instance, in our script case and, um, and, and many others.

So that's, that's the difference to me. Um, and it, it takes having a law and enforcing the law and, you know, being really, you know, patient and, you know, um, in it for the long haul, because these cases can go on for a really long time. Um.

Jillian: And how do you find these cases? Like, you say, you try case, you work with local counsel and you are trying cases and fighting cases all over the country.

So how do you find these cases? Are you looking for issues where then you see, um, see a violation of rights? Or are people coming to you? Or is it a mixture of both?

Rebecca: So our cases typically come to us. Because either clients or other attorneys recognize a, a systemic issue and they, they come to us for that specific expertise.

Um, so we have, you know, ongoing relationships with a lot of, you know, disability community groups, um, as well as other social justice groups. Because, you know, I say, you know, you're never just representing disabled people, disabled people, all the other identities too. Um, it's such intersectional work.

And so….Um, it's really important to me to be connected with other, um, marginalized communities and their organizations, because there's so many issues, you know, that, you know, we're all running into. Um, so that, you know, so, so those client groups will, will often bring us, bring us issues and then, and then community groups, and then attorneys and there…there's a limited number of attorneys who are doing disability rights, plaintiff's side litigation in the country. And when often, when attorneys are working up, working up an issue, they're working with a client, they're working with a few clients, and then they realize that an issue is systemic um, we often get the call and they're like, it seems like this might be a class action. And, um, and so sometimes that, that's how it….We, you know, team up and then, because one of the really cool things about being a national organization is that, um, you know, we're doing, you know, similar cases, we can often replicate cases.

So, um, I think our emergency preparedness work is a great example. So, um, and before I started working on these cases, I hadn't really, um, you know, thought much about, you know, what cities and municipalities are required to do to, you know, have emergency preparedness plans in place, but they're required to do quite a lot, um, and they've got to make sure that people with disabilities are included in all parts of their plans.

So our work on emergency preparedness started in California and we got. Um, a really good, um, really good opinion from a judge, um, that sort of laid out the nine elements of emergency preparedness plans and what they need to include. Um, And so we were able to take that, um, and you know, lots of, you know, we had looked at, you know, plans and gotten complaints from, you know, because we had gotten press about the, you know, the cases in California, we were able to, you know, look at plans and other cities and, you know, realize that they, many of them were also deficient.

Um, and so we were, we…with that sort of California wind under our belt, you know, in the legal world, that's a good precedent. Um, so we were able to use that in other jurisdictions. Um, so for example, in New York city and then, um, not everything for us is litigation. Um, I know that's hard to believe, but everything, okay.

Everything starts with a letter, uh, you know, so, uh, uh, an organization, a client. you know, comes to us, we, you know, work up an issue and if we decide to take it on, if it's something we can take on, um, we send a letter and we, you know, to the entity and, you know, where the discrimination occurred and we say, you know, this happened, um, you know, this violates the law.

We would really love to talk to you about this, but if not, we'll have to consider, you know, options for our client under the law. Um, and sometimes entities come to the table and we work out really, really wonderful agreements. Um, and that can happen pretty quickly, but often for the, the big, big barriers, um, that does not happen.

And that's why we have these cases that go on for, for years and years.

Jillian: Um, I mean, there's so many questions. The first one that came to mind is, when you talked about the intersectionality of it, and I'm really glad that you did, because I think to get kind of like, re… I want to say reinforce, but it's not the right word, but that's just the word that came to mind.

Um, the idea that disability like, we say a lot, like, dis…you know, all issues are disability rights issues, that disability is an intersectional, um, marginalized community because anyone can become disabled at any time. It does cross all, um, it, it just, it encompasses all parts of society, whether we see it or not, whether we understand it or not.

Um, so I was wondering if you could kind of talk about cases where the impact of it, um, let me rephrase, um, where the judgment did not only benefit the disability community. Yeah.

Rebecca: Yeah. Um, so one, one…the main thing that comes to mind is when we make things more physically accessible, we're not helping just people with mobility disabilities.

Um, you know, when we get curb cuts and sidewalks, it makes it easier for, you know, the person pushing the catering cart down the street to, you know, and the person with the luggage and the, you know, the, the person with the, with the stroller, you know, those are, you know, not, um, you know, those are sort of non, non disabled beneficiaries of, of, um, some of those things.

And I think also, you know, when, when society includes people with disabilities, everybody wins because you're getting, you know, fuller participation. You're getting a more real cross section of the population in your customer base or, you know, whatever, you know, or your ridership, if you're a transit system or, you know, whatever, um, whatever, you know.

Whatever the case may be.

Jillian: Um, exactly. And I think that, like, it's like, everybody, you know, benefits from when the building is more, when a place is more accessible. It doesn't exclude anyone who previously had access in making a space more accessible. And I think that's often like kind of this false narrative that kind of gets pushed out or like, or the more annoying one is it'll diminish the historical value of a place and making it more accessible like…When you have like, those kind of…where, like, knowing that there are grandfather clauses in the ADA for things like public spaces like, how do you then…How do you go about fighting against those?

Rebecca: So there's, there's often, you know, ways to, you know, there, so the ADA is a floor. It's not a ceiling. Um, we're very good at being creative about using different laws to, you know, require accessibility. So it really, it really depends on the situation. A lot of things, you know, that, People think are, you know, completely, you know, grandfathered in or, or something like that, um, actually aren't and there, there's ways around it, but it takes.

It's really, um, takes creative legal thinking and, you know, looking at sometimes different state and local laws, not just the federal ones. Um, you know, you know, there's some, some, um, you know, in the housing context, we, you know, we also use, um, you know, the Fair Housing Act sometimes, you know, there's, there's different statutes that, that could be, that can be used, but it's, um, I sort of thought about a lot of, you know, as my, as you know, teenage Rebecca went from having access to everything.

I was a year on competitive swimmer and a runner. There was nothing I couldn't get to. And then all of a sudden I realized there was a whole section, whole sections of society that I couldn't get to. And, you know, I went to college and they said, well, if you want to be major in this, you should just know, you're never going to And I was like, what, what is, what is this?

Like, we, we need to build this better.

Jillian: Right.

Rebecca: Yeah. And you know, and often it's not, not because of, of bad intent, but no one has thought through and it, you know, takes lawyers to, to, to force that.

Jillian: I will say, I think, and this is why I think people in the disability community are such good advocates and why…are such good lawyers and, mom, if you're listening, that does not mean I'm saying I'm going to go to law school one day.

Um, but I think it's because we have to be advocates for ourselves on a daily basis like we talked about before, and kind of, you know, when we talked about the fatigue, but we do have to do it on a daily basis, but also we have to be creative and resourceful. We have to find ways to adapt and make this world more accessible when it is stubborn, and when it doesn't want to, when there is no, like, when they're, yeah…when…Okay. Words.

Um, when you are, when a society doesn't want to adapt or change. So, like, we kind of have to, like, we are very, we have to be resourceful. I say like, disabled people are the most, some of the most like resourceful, creative people I know. And I think that kind of does play hand in hand in the work that you're doing in terms of looking at the law and how you are constructing these arguments and tackling these cases.

Rebecca: Absolutely.

Jillian: Are there any ongoing or upcoming cases that you can talk about that the community should be following or should be aware of? And not, and not just the community, like society at large.

Rebecca: Yes. So many cases, um, and folks are welcome to sign up for our, our e newsletter at DRAlegal.org. Um, we don't send it out too often, so you will not be bombarded with, with emails, but, um, we do do a few times a year.

Um, We, we, we, we send out, um, updates and so that's a good place to get updated. Um, but you know, things that are on my mind a lot are, you know, voting. It's huge. Um, we've been doing voting rights work for, um, for years and it, it's, it's interesting to look at how voting and, you know, who has access to voting and who doesn't, um, from a disability perspective, how that has really evolved over the years.

Um, you know, when we first started this work, we were looking mostly at the physical accessibility of polling places for people with mobility disabilities. Um, And that was mostly in New York and where a lot of the inaccessible public schools were being used as polling places. And, you know, then it sort of, we, we did some, you know, accessible voting machine work in California for people with print disabilities.

You know, the, the typical story was the, the blind person would show up to vote and nobody would have ever used the machine before. They didn't know how to help them vote accessibly and independently. And, um, you know, being able to vote privately is really important. Um, and we, uh, so our work. When the pandemic started, and I don't imagine the focus will shift anytime soon, really became on accessible absentee voting, um, because people with print disabilities were, you know, facing, you know, all kinds of barriers when it came to making sure that system was accessible.

So, um, We have a case in California, um, where we're working to, to try to get relief in time for, um, the upcoming election. Um, so that blind people can, can, you know, be one step closer to being independent, um, when they vote. And, um, also our New York transportation work, you know, getting around New York city is, is really tough and there's a lot.

Jillian: Oh yeah.

Rebecca: Um, and you know, DRA, you know, several weeks ago was in court back-to-back days and, you know, on, on two of these cases and the courtroom was packed with the disability community. The press was waiting outside the courthouse after to ask us, you know, what happened and you know, these are two, two to watch. So they're still ongoing.

Um, one is our, um, New York City taxi cab case and then our, um, MTA elevator maintenance case. So we're still trying to get the MTA to we've gotten gotten a big win and that the, the MTA is going to be installing elevators over a period of years. Um, and most of its stations, but, um, we're still in litigation on the, the issue of, you know, the MTA's responsibility to maintain elevators, um, in, in stations.

And then, um, we're still, uh, fighting to enforce the, other settlement with the taxi limousine commission to bring the fleet up to at least 50 percent wheelchair accessibility. Um, so I think staying, staying tuned on, on those, um, I think our, you know, we're all working, we're working alongside our clients very hard on those cases.

Jillian: Yeah. And, um, you mentioned the newsletter and I'll give you the opportunity to plug yourself at the end, but I do want to say now that it will be in the show notes for links to subscribe, links to the website, um, to um, and like Rebecca kind of said, when the, when you guys are in New York, like if there are opportunities to show up and show support, like it's all on the, on the website.

Rebecca: Yes.

Jillian: Yes. So that will be in the show notes.

Um. What is the most rewarding part of your job, of the work that you do?

Rebecca: The most rewarding part of my job is we're literally changing what it means to be a disabled person in this country for the better, and we're literally changing the fabric of society and we're changing the landscape and we're making it more accessible.

Whether, you know, you're a disabled person who's incarcerated, or, you know, you're just trying to get from point A to point B down the street. And on, you know, sidewalks that aren't broken um, you know, or you're a student trying to navigate the world. Um, I, you know, we're, you know, building a more accessible, a more accessible society, um, nationwide.

Jillian: I love that answer. And I find it, this is like, going to sound like, so, like the best, like you're saying, like, that is so cool. That is like, that is the coolest thing that you are like to be able to say that, you know, that your job is changing the fabric of society is changing what it means to be a disabled.

Right? Like that is, that is the coolest thing. Like, there's no other adjective I can think of to describe it.

Rebecca: Yeah. That's why I used to read during law school. I, you know, I worked at some different organizations and I really fell in love with the work at DRA because it's so unique and you know, no one, no one else is, is focusing on, on, on it, like, you know, and we, we get really, really cool results. Yeah.

Um, you know, we're getting, you know, juvenile detention centers across the country are actually starting to provide special-ed to, you know, people that are held there rather than just putting them in solitary confinement and pepper spray, you know, healthcare providers are providing, starting to provide, um, you know, interpreters for d/Deaf patients, um, colleges are starting to provide accommodations to students with mental health disabilities rather than telling them they need to leave campus because of their disability.

So we're, you know, these are all things that we work on all the time. And I, I feel really lucky. I, you know, I went to law school with a very, very narrow focus. I wanted to, you know, make, make the world better for people with disabilities as cheesy as that sounds.

And I'm, you know, I get to do that every day. Um, and not a lot of people, um, can say that. So, um…

Jillian: I think that's the coolest, that is the coolest, yeah, that it's the coolest. Kind of get a loss for words at that. Um, Who do you look up to?

Rebecca: I look up to, to so many people. I think in this context, I want to mention, um, a mentor who passed away last year, Andrés Gallegos.

Um, he was a disabled attorney, um, who passed away, had a very robust practice out of Chicago and was also the chair of National Council on Disability and was just a force and a caring mentor. And, um, was, you know, anytime, you know, like I said in the beginning, there's not nearly enough disabled attorneys.

And so, um, whenever I meet one that's doing Really cool disability work. Um, I, you know, I try to learn as much as I can from them, um, and, and connect with them and, you know, that's very much, you know, how I also ended up at DRA in the first place was our, one of our co founders, Larry Paradis, who's also passed away, um, was an attorney with a disability, um, who really took me under his wing and, and mentored me.

And it was. That was so important and, you know, now I'm in a place where I'm trying to do that for, for, you know, others who are brand new to practicing.

Jillian: That's, I love that answer.

Um, are there any questions I have not asked in this conversation that you would like to answer?

Rebecca: I think I would just…Oh, for folks who are wanting to learn more about DRA, there's also our website, but we do an annual, um, so we're, this is our second annual national gala.

So we’re turning 31 years old this year. We turned 30 years old last year, but we started last year. You were there, Jillian. The new, the new model for our gala is because we are this national org umm, we have a, so it'll be November 13th this year. We'll be in person in New York and in San Francisco at the same time.

So we start at 4:30 in California and 7:30 in New York. Um, and the, the live components of the event are happening in both places. And it's sort of simulcast across, and it's also streaming. Um, and we have a lot of really, really exciting stuff. Um, I can't quite share all the details yet, but it's going to be really, really a real good celebration of the disability community and how far we've come this year, and then we, we will have a Chicago location, um, as well this year.

So we've got, you know, we're there and, you know, and we did this model, um, of, of a gala to. You know, and it's also live streamed. We wanted to have maximum accessibility. We know there's members of the disability community who, um, are probably never going to be able to be out in big crowds anymore, you know, compromise folks.

And so we want them to have full access. And so there's the live stream, you know, there's people, you know, they can't travel. All kinds of things. So you can watch it from the comfort of your home, or you can come to the party in person in Chicago, New York, San Francisco, and then you can all see each other and what's happening.

So, um, through, through wonders of technology magic, this is happening for the second time again this year. And, um, I'm really excited for it. So

Jillian: I'm excited. It was an incredible event. Last year, that's where we met and I got to meet you and really get to know the disability rights advocates and the work that you're doing.

And it was incredible seeing the both coasts and everything and just getting to meet some incredible people doing, again, such important and such cool work. So I'm very excited and will at least, if anything, be on a live stream to watch this year, but hopefully would like to be there. Yeah. New York. Yes.

Um, we'll talk about that later. Okay. Bye. Where else can people follow you, follow DRA, if they want to, if they're able to get involved, if there are any ways that they can really like plug, plug yourself, plug DRA.

Rebecca: Folks can find me, um, I'm @Rebecca.willilford.dra on Instagram and threads. DRA is @DRAlegal on Instagram, um, also our website, DRAlegal.org and also on LinkedIn. Folks should feel free to, to reach out to us. Um, we love, love hearing from, from the community.

Jillian: Yes. I will have links to do that in the show notes.

Um, final question. Cause I feel like, you know, with the work that you're doing, I'm assuming that you have to find ways to unwind and to relax.

So I'm curious to know what content are you consuming right now? That is really like grab your attention, whether it's a new book, TV movie. What, what content are you consuming? That's really captured your attention?

Rebecca: The honest answer iss that over, uh, I think…last night I finished the last installment of Bridgerton.

Um, so, so Bridgerton and, um, I am, I'm actually looking for, for my next book to read in, in my spare time. So if you have any suggestions, I'm all ears.

Jillian: What types of books do you like? I will tell you offline, but just so I can prepare, make a list.

Rebecca: Um, I really like nonfiction. Um, yeah. So any suggestions you've got, got on that front.

I'll send a list. I mean, also I, this is kind of a big answer, but you know, things that I, I really love, like the Complete Works of Shakespeare. It has. It has everything. It has comedy, tragedy, romance, sonnets, um,

Jillian: All of the above.

Rebecca: All of it. Um, you know, and I, you know, the, the stories can speak to you in different ways and in different seasons of life, depending on what you're, what you're going through.

Jillian: I love that. Um, I will be sending you a list of of non-fiction recommendations that I have, um, how we talk. Um, but it was truly such a pleasure for, uh, to speak with you. Thank you so much for coming on. Um, I know that the door is open for you to always come back if there's any particular issue going on that you wanna talk about or you just wanna have a, because I feel like there's so much more we can talk about with the work that you're doing and the work in this and the disability justice work that, um, in general that's been going on.

I think that, yeah, the door is always open for you to come back on.

Rebecca: All right. Yeah, I'd be happy to there's, I could talk all day about this stuff. And thank you so much for this podcast that you put together and for all the amazing folks from the community that you bring on, it's, it's an honor to be included among them.

Jillian: Yeah. Um, The final thing I didn't, I guess I have to ask of you is for you to just remind my listeners in your most fierce voice possible that height is just a number, not a limit.

Rebecca: Height is just a number, not a limit.

Jillian: Always Looking Up is hosted by Jillian Curwin and edited and produced by Ben Curwin.

Please make sure to rate, review, and subscribe and follow on Spotify so that you never miss an episode. Follow me on Instagram @jill_ilana and the podcast @alwayslookingup.podcast for updates and check out my blog, JillianIlana.com for more content about what it is like to be a little person in an average sized world.

Thanks for listening. See you next week.

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LinkedIn: Rebecca Williford

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