Samantha Rayburn-Trubyk On The "M" Word

Image Description:

Background: A white background with the words “LISTEN NOW” written in gold

Foreground: A dark green box with a photo of Samantha - a white woman of short stature with long, blonde hair wearing a blue shirt, standing in front of a blue sky. Below is the white text “#60 Samantha Rayburn-Trubyk - The “M” Word.” Below the text is a white line, the rewind, pause, and fast forward symbols.

Jillian Curwin: Hi everyone. Welcome to Always Looking Up, the podcast when no one is overlooked and height is only a number, never a limit. Hosted by me Jillian Curwin. Each week, I will be having a conversation about what it is like to live in a world that is not necessarily designed for you.

To start, I would like to issue a trigger warning. This episode does use offensive language in context of recent events that took place prior to recording.

In today's episode, I sat down with Samantha Rayburn-Trubyk. Samantha is a newly elected advocacy director of LPA, the Little People of America. This episode was recorded approximately 24 hours after Jerry Jones, the owner of the Dallas Cowboys, in a press conference, used the “M”-word.

We go over exactly what he said, along with LPA's response. Explain why the “M”-word is a derogatory slur and question why it is so ingrained in society's vocabulary, talk about the backlash little people have received when trying to educate about the “M”-word and discuss how this one instance reflects how little people are often dehumanized by society, and the changes we would like to see.

Let's get into it. Hi, Samantha.

Samantha Rayburn-Trubyk: Hi.

Jillian Curwin: How are you?

Samantha Rayburn-Trubyk: Great. How are you?

Jillian Curwin: Good. Thank you so much for taking the time to talk to me. I've been wanting to get you on the podcast for a while, but I think it's very timely now with something that happened recently within the past 24 hours since we're recording this. So thank you so much for coming on.

Samantha Rayburn-Trubyk: Yeah, no problem. I'm happy to be here.

Jillian Curwin: Okay. Before we jump into why I wanted to have you on the show, I did want to ask, how do you define being a little person?

Samantha Rayburn-Trubyk: How do I…? That's a great question. I would define it as love. I love everything about being a little person. I think it's made me who I am. I wouldn't change a thing. And so if I were to define it, it would be you know, you can go with the medical definition, which I think is you can look up anywhere. But I think for myself I would define it as perfection.

Jillian Curwin: I love that. I love how simple it is. And I think it's very accurate. Love that. So jumping into why I really want to talk to you. So we're recording this on July 27th. Yesterday was the ADA anniversary, turned 32. And also Jerry Jones, who is the owner of the Dallas Cowboys, had a press conference. And I'll let you, as LPA's advocacy director, kind of explain what he said.

Samantha Rayburn-Trubyk: Yeah, well, I mean, and it was I think it totaled 11 seconds or something. It was wasn't very long, but it was impactful. And what he spoke about, it was during their training camp, the press conference after that. And what he spoke about was he referenced the term midget and, more so, you know, he used the word midget, which is in itself a problem. But he also used it in a way where he was implying that we were, you know, for amusement or, you know, for entertainment, which is also problematic in itself.

Jillian Curwin: Right. And I have the quote here and for a little bit of context. So I guess he's referring to a former member of the Cowboys staff who passed away. I'm not a Cowboys fan. I don't know who this person is. I don't know who this person was. I know who Jerry Jones is. So this is the quote:

“A lot of our staff, certainly our scouts, Jonesboro, Arkansas, when they gave a big memorial to Lace,” who is the person who passed away, “Lace held court out here, I'm going to get me somebody, a midget to stand up there with me and dress them up like Lace and think Lace is still out here helping us. You know, we all need our props and the memory that goes with it. But here's to Lace, really, and I'm serious about that.”

So your thoughts first?

Samantha Rayburn-Trubyk: Well, you know what's sad? Excuse me, but you know what I think is sad. And again, I'm not a Cowboys fans and I don't know who he's referring to, Lace, whomever. But what's sad is that, gentlemen, that person's memory now will be will be thought of negatively. And it's kind of intertwined with a real negative connotation. You know, now that the media was involved and we put out a statement, whomever that person is and whoever that person passed his his memory is going to be tied to this. So I think I think that's sad.

Jillian Curwin: I agree. And that's something I didn't even think about. I think part of it is just because I was just so focused on the word that he used. And, you know, midget and this is, I think the first time I'm really talking about the word openly, usually I do say the “M”-word. I don't like talk... I feel like because of what I said, we kind of do have to say it.

But I think like just focusing on that and then even like you said, kind of before, take that word out and let's say he used proper language, what he said is still incredibly offensive to little people. Like, incredibly offensive.

Samantha Rayburn-Trubyk: 100%. What he implied, what he said, absolutely, take the word out, take the word midget out 100%. What he's referring to us as is being for amusement, really, for entertainment. It's completely ridiculous.

Jillian Curwin: Right. Can you, before I think we like really examine like kind of and go into like LPA's response, can you explain the history behind the M-word? Like why its…

Samantha Rayburn-Trubyk: Yeah. So, yeah, sorry to interrupt. I can explain it. So it's offensive. Obviously, it dates back to so where the word stems from that the word stems from the word midge. And what midge means is tiny fly that spreads disease. So first of all, that's a problem that you want to refer to us as tiny fly that spreads disease.

And then, so that word was really coined back in the freak show era with P.T. Barnum, who really made a profit off of showcasing little people as a carnival sideshow. And that's where he coined the term midget to refer to to us. And it's just taken, taken hold ever since. So it's problematic in two ways. First of all, how where it came from, you know, this tiny fly that spreads disease. And then it's problematic in how P.T. Barnum coined it and then used it for his own profit.

Jillian Curwin: Right. And it's interesting. And like, I find it interesting that I feel like this is the only derogatory slur that I'm aware of that like is so ingrained in everyday vocabulary. There are midget sports, there are midget… You know, there's midget, um oh my god I swear I, I literally just had it in my head.

Samantha Rayburn-Trubyk: Wrestling.

Jillian Curwin: Midget wrestling. Like there's so many of these things are just ingrained. And I have seen over the years as our community has fought back, I know there are schools that had midget mascots and the like, local little person community will speak up and speak out and say this isn't okay. And the backlash that they receive, if it was any other, first off, any other derogatory slur, wouldn't be used.

And also, if it was, you know, we've seen what's happened with other sports teams that have use like the language is changing in that in regards to Native Americans, we've seen that change, but yet we're not seeing it with the M-word.

Samantha Rayburn-Trubyk: No, we're not. And to your point, I've been at that board meeting in Dickinson, North Dakota, where I've gone and advocated for why that word should be, why that shouldn't be a word that's a mascot and basically told no and not because of the board, but because the community backlash was ridiculous. And I've also on the other side of it here in Canada, in Winnipeg, where I live, in Winnipeg, Manitoba, our group advocated for so, so in Canada, we were still using the term midget for sports leagues. Right. Which is…

Jillian Curwin: So. Yes, so does my, so does my local hometown. Yeah.

Samantha Rayburn-Trubyk: Yeah. So we were using the term I mean, this was Canada wide. We were using the term for sports leagues, for children's sports league. It was a it was to reference an age group. And in 2018, little people of Manitoba, I'm president of little people Manitoba as well as Advocacy Director for Little People of America, in 2018 LPM , Little People of Manitoba was set out to tackle this topic and it was the most controversial topic that we've set out to tackle.

And it was hard. We met with the sports organizations in in Manitoba to start and luckily it had a great ending. But through it all, it was tough. I was getting emails from people in Canada like outside of of clearly people who didn't know me calling me a cunt because it got media attention. It went, you know, we got a lot of attention because of it.

And it was something that we were so passionate about changing. But people, you know, through Facebook Messenger who just found my profile, oh, you know, some just sending me ridiculous messages that were really hurtful and unnecessary and honestly, to me, it just drove me further on why we needed to make this change. So yeah, I hear you. And it's hard and it's hard to be someone who's advocating for that, but it just drives the message home that it needs to change because how do people who first of all, I can go on and on, but I don't understand how folks who aren't affiliated with this community have such an affinity for this word. And nine times out of ten, they can't even tell you what it means right? And you go and you tell them, well, it's hurtful to me and here's why. And it's, “Well we're not using it maliciously. We don't intend it to be like that.” And, you know, shouldn't it be enough that this community wants it changed, wants it eradicated? And shouldn't it be enough to, to remove it from everything or to stop using it, like it's, I feel often like a broken record.

I mean, the fact that Jerry Jones used this yesterday and I think our statement was pretty strong, at least for sure it was. I think it was strong and the message was clear. But how many times do we have to keep talking about this? How many times do we have to keep saying, don't use that word, we don't like it right before people actually start respecting us?

And so to your point there, you're right. Why are we still dealing with this? And why, you know, any other word from any other marginalized group wouldn't be allowed?

Jillian Curwin: Exactly.

Samantha Rayburn-Trubyk: So why is it okay for us?

Jillian Curwin: Exactly. And before we touch on LPA's response, which I was very impressed at, how fast you got that out there, I do want to correct myself. I just looked it up on Google, my youth football program, it is youth football. It is not midget football.

Samantha Rayburn-Trubyk: They changed.

Jillian Curwin: I think they changed it. I don't think it meant I may be correct that it might not have ever been, but I think it is like just so ingrained. Like I've heard of midget football, midget baseball. So like I…so to my town, I do apologize. You guys are using correct language. I am correcting myself. Do not edit this out Ben. Keep this in. Keep it all in.

What I said. How? Because I know LPA issued a statement in 2015 about the “M”-word.

Samantha Rayburn-Trubyk: Yes.

Jillian Curwin: Which I think I think I have here. Yes. Okay. So here is this is what this is from 2015 is… Where'd it go? I'm sorry. Technical difficulties. Here we are:

“The word midget is used as a derogatory slur to refer to people of short stature. Whether or not the intention of using the word is to bully and to demean, or just as a synonym for small. The term has been deemed a slur by those within the community and should be eliminated accordingly.”

So that was in 2015. So what did the statement to Jerry Jones say?

Samantha Rayburn-Trubyk: So I can read it. So Jen Crumley, who's our PR director, Mark Povinelli, our president and myself, were going back and forth with this yesterday and quickly because we wanted it's timely and we wanted to get it out. So the response was:

“Midget is a term that has widely been known to be derogatory for years and should be common knowledge to anyone in the public arena such as Jerry Jones. Ignorance at this point is simply not an excuse. Any use of this disparaging slur, along with suggestions or insinuations that our stature exists for amusement, is deplorable and inexcusable. The millions of individuals with dwarfism around the globe already face unfair disadvantages in their daily life due to their disability, including discrimination, harassment and assault. Little People of America, the world's oldest and largest support organization for individuals with dwarfism, is continually disappointed when those in positions of power who have a wide influence within the general population continue to perpetuate harmful stereotypes. Those who use the term midget or any terminology that further stigmatizes people born with dwarfism are asked to educate themselves to eradicate this world word. Little People of America is asking Jerry Jones to issue an apology and vow to use appropriate terminology rooted in respect and dignity going forward.”

Jillian Curwin: Very well said. And it should be noted that Jerry Jones did apologize, saying that,

“Earlier today. I made a reference, today meaning the 26th, Tuesday the 26th, made a reference which I understand may have been viewed as offensive. I apologize.”

I don't know if there's anything more that he said. That's at least what the article is saying. Is that apology enough?

Samantha Rayburn-Trubyk: I don't know. I think it's… No, I don't think so. It'd be great if he not only with the apology, but took to more of a public forum and announced, you know, maybe why it's an issue and used his power and influence to educate others who seem to listen to him. So, no, I think I think it's I don't think it's enough.

But I mean, it is what it is. You can't control what other how other people are going apologize. You can't control what their what the messaging is going to be from their PR team or whatever. But it is a step in the right direction that he apologized. And quickly, I should mention.

Jillian Curwin: Yes.

Samantha Rayburn-Trubyk: So I think that's a step in the right direction. And I'm hoping that with some of the media around it that those who follow him and those who take their influence from him, you know, maybe take a pause and go, huh, that's not okay. Why? And maybe and maybe stop and pause and educate themselves a bit.

Jillian Curwin: Right. And I think it's so… and one thing I've noticed and I think it was kind of pointed out is that like, let's say he made fun of a different type of disability. I feel like the public backlash would have been much greater. And yet, for… I didn't know he said it until I saw you share LPA's statement in the, in one of our groups like, it wasn't trending on Twitter that he said this, there was no immediate backlash, there was no cancel him for this reason I'm sure there's, you know, like it's, I think it's just the fact that even just in it and it's especially I think, hurtful because it is disability pride month that like, it's still, like if LPA didn't say something would anyone have called them on it.

Samantha Rayburn-Trubyk: Well, let me tell you how we got word of this and that might help. And I think that actually tells a great story as well as maybe that the pendulum is swinging to the right direction. So we didn't hear about it until TMZ Sports shout out to them sent us the recording some. It was around lunchtime for me. They saw it, so they sent it to the General LPA office mailbox and said, “Can we get a response? Not sure if you've heard this. Can we get a response?” And they sent the link. So shout out to that journalist who reached out to us right away, made us aware and that from there, that's where we were. We thought, well, we got to do this quickly. They want a response from us and let's get this out.

So we didn't know about it either until TMZ came to us and said, like, heads up. So, and I think that tells a good story. I think that tells you…. And I, I think that should be a good news story because the fact that the media is reaching out to us, letting us know when these kind of atrocities occur, is a big deal, you know, and, and if you, you know, one of the comments on our private page for advocacy, somebody mentioned, you know, yes, it's terrible. Look at it, but look how far we've come. People you know, people aren't using it as much in the media anymore. People are referring it to as the “M”-word in the media. So I think, I think we need to recognize that we've come a long way and a lot of the folks that have put in the hard work before myself, before us who are advocating, have done a really good job kind of getting you know, getting the message out about who we are.

One of the other things, too, I think you mentioned that I think is important is if it was another disability group, it wouldn't be, he wouldn't have said it. Right. And I think sometimes that's maybe where we could do a better job and advocacy could do a better job. And this is a controversial discussion within our organization or within, within the little people community is do we consider ourselves disabled? And there are some people that are very strong about not being considered disabled. And there's others who, like myself, I'm very proud to say I'm to say I have a disability, I'm disabled. And I think the more we can as a group put it out that yeah, we have a disability, then I think the more society is going to go like this isn't a joke, this isn't something we should be mocking. I mean, maybe I'm looking at it through rose colored glasses, but I do think that disability term is very, very powerful for changing public perception.

Jillian Curwin: I agree. And you touched on something that I wasn't sure if you were wanting to get into this conversation about, like, should we be more a greater part of the disabled community. Understanding that there is a back and forth and for a very long time, I probably, whether consciously or subconsciously, and I've talked about this a lot recently, I didn't necessarily consider myself disabled when asking for accommodations. It was because I'm a little person. It was like there's a separate, there's… is a distinction. And I was recently coming, in the past couple of years, it coming to terms like, no, I'm disabled and I need to say I'm disabled if I want to be a part of this community, if I want this community to support me and, I guess, and my question to you is, why do you think that there is such like two, you know, two opposing points of view?

Samantha Rayburn-Trubyk: Well, I think two, I think there's opposing points of view on many things in any organization. I mean, even the term midget, you'll find, unfortunately, some people who don't want to, you know, who don't think it's, you know, why the big deal so, but where I think the opposing views come from and I'm I don't want to paint this with a brush so this is a personal opinion. I think it comes from comfort levels. I can tell you myself, similar to you growing up, I didn't want to be associated with the disability community. I didn't want to be considered disabled. I wanted, because I think it, to me personally, felt like it was shining a spotlight that I didn't want shone on me. And so I wonder if that's maybe happening to folks where they don't want that spotlight shine and they've already got, I'm already a little person. Why identify, you know, and bring all this other, you know, potential attention? I guess? I don't I'm just speculating that that would be my speculation. You know, some people some people think disability is a real negative word. Some people think it's it's really harmful. And I think, folks, you know, I'd love to be able to help this community understand through whatever influence. Hopefully I'll have that it's not a bad word, that it's actually one you want to embrace.

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Samantha Rayburn-Trubyk: So, yeah. So, I think it's an interesting and, it's an interesting topic. You know, it comes up all the time in our community, you know, and on the chat forums, but it's, you know, and I'm just speculating for that for sure.

Jillian Curwin: Right. And I'll say, speaking for myself, like I kind of feel like if we want to be included, if we want to be able to ask for accommodations at school, if we want to be able to be protected under the ADA and like advocate under that, then we have to say we are disabled. Like I think that we just kind of have to, and I understand that it's very hard to sometimes, and I talked about this recently where I kind of felt like growing up, I was kind of balancing between two worlds, which is the average height world and the little person world. And, you know, I lived in the average height world and I would only have access to the little person worlds a couple of weekends and a week, a year like that. Was it so trying to fit in and part of trying to fit in was trying not to stand out. So trying not to say we're disabled. And now I kind of have the third one, which is the disabled community at large and trying to find my place in that. And there are… sometimes I still feel like that and because of conversations that I have in the community, you know, where different points of view that I don't necessarily feel seen, feel represented in the disabled community. And I think that it's not necessarily the same as I want it to change. I want to see more little people in the disabled community, if that makes sense. I want to see it and I think we should be there.

Samantha Rayburn-Trubyk: Hundred percent and we should be allies as well. But yes, we need to be more represented in the disabled community. I mean, there's some folks that are doing great work within that community, but there needs to be more. You know, we need to be partnering as an organization, and I know we have partnered and this isn't, but I think there's so much more that we can do to partner with other organizations in the disabled community that can, you know, not only help us, but also we can be an ally to and and really show a strong partnership. So, yeah, there definitely needs to be definitely needs to be more partnerships within the disabled community and we need to be represented more there.

Jillian Curwin: Yeah, I've seen how powerful the disabled community is when it does come together. If you've seen Crip Camp, you know, you've seen it, and, like even right now with I know I have a lot of friends who have had their wheelchairs broken by airlines and seeing them all come together and rally support for wanting to help each other out even are on opposite sides of the country and like just, you know, sharing other people's stories.

Like we need to be a part of that and like I, and they'll help, you know, they'll have our back too. Like, I think that it goes both ways. And I, you know, and part of starting the podcast and opening up to talk to people of all disabilities, including little people and also allies, is to help kind of bring us in.

Samantha Rayburn-Trubyk: Totally. I am a big proponent of allyship, and that sounds odd because I'm sure everybody is, but I think it's so powerful within our organization. And I know from my experience and advocating here on a large scale that we we're not you know, we need our allies to be able to make moves. We need our allies to be able to move that needle. And without them, we couldn't. Right? So here we made some, you know, special some great connections with the government, our allies who were able to take our message and move, you know, create laws for it, create a an awareness day for us by law. So, and through that, we've been able to, you know, take on the sports organizations in Manitoba and then in Canada for some of them and make the move. So we're, you know, we need our allies more so than ever. And our allies are the folks that are going to help us change the world.

Jillian Curwin: I agree. And I do want to ask, because you are in Canada, I wanna, like, how does it compare and contrast being a little person, like how do you see it being a little person in Canada versus being a little person in the U.S.?

Samantha Rayburn-Trubyk: I'm going to say it's pretty much the same. I think, like keep in mind, I've never I haven't lived in the U.S. so that I don't know, you know, I don't know what I don't know. But from from the conversations I've had with some of my friends, it's really similar. I think your laws are a little bit more extensive, to be honest.

I mean, you've got the ADA, which is monumental and I think we're getting there. So I think in terms of protections, I almost think you're the U.S. is a bit stronger. But I do think we're getting there. I mean, we have human rights laws that protect us and other things, you know, other other laws like that. But I think in terms of treatment, I think it's very similar.

I think, you know, we still get the midget word here if you're on the street. And, you know, I think the discrimination is similar, you know, disadvantages are similar. But so, so I, if I think about it as a whole, it's probably even.

Jillian Curwin: Gotcha. You touch on something like the discrimination, like what happens with people on the street. And I think this kind of circles back to with, you know, the fact that he just used the “M”-word just so like he, I'm assuming he didn't really think about it.

Samantha Rayburn-Trubyk: No. Well, and that's the scary part. Oh, scary. But that's the that's the thing that we need to change is it's just so natural for people to use that. To your point, he didn't think about it. It wasn't it wasn't malicious. This is just part of his vocabulary. And what he thought was, was okay.

Jillian Curwin: Right. And I think it reflects like…And so often I'll see people I'm sure you see people stare at you, point at you, laugh at you, will take photos of you. And again, we know who we can tell when you're taking a photo or when you're texting, it is quite obvious.

Samantha Rayburn-Trubyk: You're not invisible.

Jillian Curwin: Right. And it's like the same thing with calling the communities out for having the “M”-word as a mascot, when you call them out, they act like you're offending them. Like they're like, you're wrong. And it's like, why is it? But with… I don't know. And if this is only with little people, if this is with others? Like, why do we think that this is still okay You know, the ADA is 32 years old here, but this is something that's been ongoing for generations, I'm assuming.

Samantha Rayburn-Trubyk: Yeah, I don't know why we think it's okay. I don't know why more folks aren't outraged about it. I don't know why it's a word that's still being used. You know, from what I, from what I learned from Dickinson when I went to, to advocate for them to remove the term midget vote, to remove their mascot as the midget or midgets, it's ingrained in history. And they feel, and again I'm not painting them all with a brush, but what the feedback that we received was, you know, we're not doing it maliciously. This is our history. Why do you want to change that? Why are you wanting to change our history? Who do you think you are? And I think what was really interesting when we went to Dickinson, there was, there's a little person in their community who went to that high school, and he came out on one of the social media forums…And I didn't meet him. So I don't, I didn't know, I don't know him. I didn't meet him. And he made a great comment about, you know, the community being enraged. But how come nobody has spoken to him? How come nobody asked for his opinion when really he should be the one enraged or he should be the one that you should be asking if there's a problem.

So I thought that was a very interesting, interesting comment and I found it impactful. Clearly, they didn't because it didn't change. It was voted down. But, but I'll tell you what's funny is when we went there's so much community camaraderie around this. I mean, there were some folks that really wanted it changed hands down. There were some folks, allies that were on our side.

But when we went to this board meeting, it was a, it was in the evening and it was at some sort of community center. People were showing up in support of keeping the word. People were showing up in their midget attire. So they're like, you know, because it's a sports because it's a mascot for their for their high school. So they were showing up in their bomber jackets that said midgets on the back. And, and, you know, we went, we got there a little bit early that day. We drove in and we got there a little bit early that day. And there was a shirt like in their, in their sports stores, like in the mall. I can't, I don't want to reference the store, but the stores sold like midget t shirts and it's because it's the mascot of the school. And I thought, Wow, what a difference, what a different world. I was just enamored. I was. It was unbelievable to me.

Jillian Curwin: I just want my listeners to, like, visualize that. Visualize walking into a store and seeing so much merchandise with a derogatory slur written on it and just being able to buy it and nobody caring if it was, and again, I'm not I'm trying not to, but like, I really do think that if it was any other derogatory slur, it. One, the merchandise wouldn't exist. Let's be… the merchandise wouldn't exist. But let's say for whatever reason it did, that the backlash to that would be enormous. But yet, like.

Samantha Rayburn-Trubyk: Yeah, I hear you.

Jillian Curwin: The backlash is against the people saying, this is wrong.

Samantha Rayburn-Trubyk: I hear you. I wanted I couldn't…. Again, it's, it was like a different, it was like I stepped into a different world than I'm used to. And I couldn't believe that I was standing up there, sitting up there with another parent of an LP, and my husband who joined as well. And we had people, you know, we said our our what we needed to say about why and looking for their support. And then they allowed people on the other side like to come and comment about why we should keep it, keep the mascot. And I'm sitting there and I'm literally thinking, is this for real? People are literally telling me how a, how I'm supposed to feel, which I guess isn't shocking, but people are literally putting in some sort of argument on why it's okay after you've just heard how hurtful it is, after you've just heard the problems with it. It was bananas.

Jillian Curwin: It's…. They're…. It's like they're defending, dehumanizing us.

Samantha Rayburn-Trubyk: That's that's a great way to put it.

Jillian Curwin: They're defending dehumanizing us. And I feel so this happens all the time. I see it in the media that particularly with little people, and I'll say more often with little people. And again, correct me if I'm wrong, anyone, please do that. We are dehumanized on a much greater scale. And, you know, and it comes to back to being portrayed as elves and being portrayed as munchkins and being a part of P.T. Barnum Circus and tossed like people, you know, dwarf tossing is in some places it's legal and like it happened, like people will like literally… and like, you know it's talked about being… Peter Dinklage when he referenced what happened in in his Golden Globe speech, that he referenced, he told people to talk about it like that was just in a bar and someone just, like, picked him up and threw him because it's like…

Samantha Rayburn-Trubyk: Well, let me tell you, we got in Florida and I… don't quote me on the date. It wasn't too long ago we, we heard about a bar that's putting on the dwarf tossing. And when folks tried to say something about, hey, this isn't okay, the bar came back with something about the person who's doing it is, you know, he's choosing to do it. He's, he, it's his choice and it's, you know, it's bullshit.

Jillian Curwin: And it's interesting because I think it's it was at least in these articles I'm seeing from 2011, but it was banned in Florida of all things to be banned in Florida. That was like… It's like, it's like, and it goes back to, again, to how easy he was able to just use that word. It reflects just so much of how little people are on a much greater scale, dehumanized. And something does need to change. And I think, you know, and hopefully the community, and if you're not for this, I would love to have you come on and have this conversation. This place is for open for all conversations. Like, hopefully we do start moving in the direction of being a part of the disabled community and you know, having that power that comes with it.

Samantha Rayburn-Trubyk: 100%. And I'd love to be a part of that conversation too. If somebody….

Jillian Curwin: Yes. And I want to say, like, again, even for people who like are, do, are for the word in the little person community, you are always welcome to come on. I want to have these debates. I want to learn. This space is open. Like I'm not… I want to learn. So, if you are listening and you want to have your voice be heard, this is the space that your voice is more than welcome. So please don't hesitate to reach out to me.

Samantha Rayburn-Trubyk: I think that's great. And I think that's great that you said that because I think the fact that you're willing to be so open is also how that message is going to spread and spread well and far. Yeah, I think that's amazing. I just want to confirm that it was Florida. Sorry let me change it. Sorry to Florida. I realize that.

Jillian Curwin: Sorry Florida.

Samantha Rayburn-Trubyk: Sorry Florida. I didn't mean to lump you in. It was Berkeley. Berkeley California, which in itself is problematic. Yeah.

Jillian Curwin: Berkeley, the place where the disability rights movement really started.

Samantha Rayburn-Trubyk: Wait, hold on.

Jillian Curwin: Wait. Yeah, I know. I think I know. What about you're talking about.

Samantha Rayburn-Trubyk: Okay, can we go back?

Jillian Curwin: Yes.

Samantha Rayburn-Trubyk: Can we go back? So it wasn't dwarf tossing. It was midget wrestling. But I feel like there was something else that I saw, so I don't want you to misquote me.

Jillian Curwin: Wasn't there a midget bowling?

Samantha Rayburn-Trubyk: I feel like I… Yeah, I just can't quote it right now.

Jillian Curwin: I'm looking in the group. Hold on. I'm going to find this. We're both on our Facebook.

Samantha Rayburn-Trubyk: I know midget wrestling microman-. I don't want to give it any credit, but.

Jillian Curwin: I found it.

Samantha Rayburn-Trubyk: Yeah, it was in Berkeley.

Jillian Curwin: Okay.

Samantha Rayburn-Trubyk: Sorry, Florida.

Jillian Curwin: Sorry Florida. I think I found though, the event that you were talking, you might have been first referring to that I know it was mentioned in one of our groups, is that there was midget bowling.

Samantha Rayburn-Trubyk: Yes. Like why can't we move from that? Why are people so married to this word?

Jillian Curwin: Right. And it's I think, again, it stems back from just how little people are being portrayed in the media and and talked about and again, like you know, with the seven, with the Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs movie coming out, Disney said they're not cast. You know, it's not going to be little people, but they cast a little person actor. So I don't know how this is going to like, I don't know…What if this is going to be new? This is going to be different? This is Disney just kind of saying we're going to try, but then actually we're going to do it some other way. I don't know. The movie is still in production. I don't know. But I like, you know, and I think we've said this many times, like something needs to change. And I think it's also, and I think something within us. I think something within our community needs to change. Cause I think, you know, I think it's like I think if we do, I think it'll be much more powerful. And I think also that will help create the change that needs to be happening outside of our community.

Samantha Rayburn-Trubyk: 100%. 100%. I agree with that.

Jillian Curwin: If anyone who's listening to this for the first time and had no idea that the “M”-word is as offensive as it is, is a derogatory slur, where could they go? What resources can they turn to to educate themselves?

Samantha Rayburn-Trubyk: I think honestly, I think the start would be the little people of America website LPAonline.org. I'm just going to… it's www.LPAonline.org. There's so many good resources on there. So much good information. You know, if somebody wants to educate themselves, you can put my email on here or you can put it in your notes.

And I am more than happy to have a discussion with folks because I think I'm that passionate about it and I'm that serious about the change.

Jillian Curwin: Love that I will have that information. I'm going to ask you, towards the end, like where people can follow you? But before we get there, I do want to know, who do you look up to?

Samantha Rayburn-Trubyk: Oh, that's a loaded question because there's so many. So I don't know how much time you have. Well, I mean, first and foremost, I'm going to say my mother, she is the ultimate badass. She is just everything I want to be. And she's average size. And she she taught me everything about self-love and self-confidence and not putting up with bullshit. So first and foremost, I'd say my mother.

And then I think it just depends on the situation. I have different folks I look up to for different kind of things in my life, so I can't really give you an immediate answer because I'm not. I'm blanking out right now, but I tend to follow folks where I can learn a lot from. I like to surround myself with people who are much smarter than me because I have so much to learn. So my friend group tends to be folks that are smarter than myself where I can learn a lot from. So I look up to, you know, folks within my circle. I look up to, you know, my parents, obviously. And then there's some folks in the media that I follow and that, you know, I tend to really I don't I don't want to say copy, but I tend to use some of their influence to guide my life a bit. It's kind of a non-answer in terms of public personalities.

Jillian Curwin: No, but I love that. I love that, I love that idea. Like surrounding yourself with people who are smarter than you. And that is something I try to do because I am always wanting to learn and to educate myself. So I love that. Are there any questions I have not asked that you would like to answer?

Samantha Rayburn-Trubyk: No, I think you've done a great job. I think we've had a good discussion. I think you've answered I mean, I think you've asked pretty much everything that where we want the conversation to go, change needs to happen, you know, and end sentence. It's small, but it's powerful and needs to happen.

Jillian Curwin: I agree and I want to kind of stress that this is just the beginning of the conversation. I hope this should not be the end. Please like, community listening, don't let this be the end. So let's keep this conversation going. Now I'll ask where can people follow you?

Samantha Rayburn-Trubyk: Well, you can follow me on Instagram at Rayburn or @Sam.Trubyk. You can follow me on Twitter @RayburnTrubyk, and also on Facebook, if anybody is on Facebook, and you can find me at Samantha Rayburn-Trubyk, but generally, that's kind of where I where I am. I'm not, I'm very, I guess I only have three social media, so I don't know if that's a lot or a little, but I only have three.

Jillian Curwin: Gotcha. And if people want it did want to reach out to you what is the best way for them to do so?

Samantha Rayburn-Trubyk: So my email is Samantha.Rayburn-Trubyk… so Samantha.Rayburn-Trubyk@LPAOnline.org. or at LPA? Hang tight one second. Sorry. Let me. I feel like I should know that at LPA online dot org. Sorry. So Samantha.Rayburn-Trubyk@LPAOnline.org.

Jillian Curwin: Awesome. I will have all her contact info and where to follow her in the shownotes. Again, if you have any questions from this conversation, please feel free to reach out to her or me. And again, let's keep this conversation going.

I like to do kind of an icebreaker, but it's at the end with all my guests. So I have like five categories here and I just want to hear your favorite in each one. Favorite book?

Samantha Rayburn-Trubyk: Oh, my goodness. I… so many. I love to read. So I am going to say right now I'm really reading an amazing book called, I can get the exact name, but it's about staring, actually. And it's, can you hang tight one sec? I don't want to get this one wrong. One sec. So it's called Staring: How We Look. And it's by Rosemarie Garland-Thompson. It's fantastic. In fact, I have it at work with me so that I can and with my highlighter, you can see so that I can read it on my on my lunch break.

Jillian Curwin: Oh, I'm interested. Oh, i'm gonna try that on Amazon. Favorite TV show?

Samantha Rayburn-Trubyk: Oh, my goodness. Sex and the City.

Jillian Curwin: Who are you? Who do you identify with?

Samantha Rayburn-Trubyk: Carrie. Hands down.

Jillian Curwin: I always say i'm either Carrie or Charlotte. Probably leaning more towards Charlotte.

Samantha Rayburn-Trubyk: Oh, yeah. I would also say Parks and Rec. Parks and Recreation is another like I highly recommend. It's very good.

Jillian Curwin: Good show. Favorite drink?

Samantha Rayburn-Trubyk: Oh coffee. Hands down. Black coffee.

Jillian Curwin: Black coffee. Gotcha. Favorite piece of advice you've ever given?

Samantha Rayburn-Trubyk: Oh, I think that's an odd question, because I don't know what other people find impactful. I think if I'm telling my son, I have a 16 year old son also born with achondroplasia, if I'm telling him the advice I would give him is to stop worrying what anybody else thinks. Honestly, it will get you nowhere.

Jillian Curwin: Love that. Final one. Favorite piece of advice you've ever received?

Samantha Rayburn-Trubyk: Stop worrying about what anybody thinks. It honestly will get you nowhere. You know, one of the things my mum, I think one of the things I try and keep in the back of my mind, one of the great pieces of advice she's ever given me was, you know, whatever you're going to say, make sure you'll say it to anybody.

So whatever conversation you're having with somebody, you know, for example, gossip, whatever, not gossip, but it make sure that whatever you're putting out in the world can be said to everybody, which I think is really interesting.

Jillian Curwin: Well, I really like that. I really like that. Samantha, thank you so much for coming on. Thank you for doing this so quickly. I really love talking with you. I wish it wasn't necessarily about this. I'm really glad we had this conversation. Please come back. I would love to talk to you again. The final, final thing I just have to ask of you is in your badass voice possible to remind my listeners that height is just a number, not a limit.

Samantha Rayburn-Trubyk: Oh, yeah, height is just a number, not a limit. We shouldn't even be talking about height. I'm going to keep going. Sorry. One of the things that drives me bananas is when parents talk about how tall their child is, as if it's some sort of medal of honor or some sort of equates to brain power. And I find that weird.

Samantha Rayburn-Trubyk: And I do call my average sized friends out on that. So, yes.

Jillian Curwin: So there you have it, folks.

Samantha Rayburn-Trubyk: This was fun. I really enjoyed it.

Jillian Curwin: Thank you. You're welcome back anytime.

Samantha Rayburn-Trubyk: I'd love it.

Jillian Curwin: Always Looking Up is hosted by Jillian Curwin and edited and produced by Ben Curwin. Please make sure to rate review and subscribe and follow on Spotify so that you never miss an episode. Follow me on Instagram @jill_ilana and the podcast @alwayslookingup.podcast for updates and check out my blog JillianIlana.com for more content about what it is like to be a little person in an average sized world. Thanks for listening. See you next week.

Listen here:

Spotify

Apple Podcasts

Podcast Page