Jillian IlanaFebruary 05, 2023Comment

Alice Sheppard On Dance, Disability and Defying Gravity

Jillian IlanaFebruary 05, 2023Comment

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Foreground: A dark green box with a black-and-white photo of Alice Sheppard, flying in her wheelchair, body parallel to the stage as she reaches her arms wide, one hand almost skimming the floor. She is a multiracial Black woman with coffee-colored skin and short curly hair; she wears a red and gold bodysuit, black and white lines adorn her face. Photo by Heather Cromartie/The Shed. Below is the white text “#85 Alice Sheppard - Dance, Disability and Defying Gravity”. Below the text is a white line, the rewind, pause, and fast forward symbols.

Jillian Curwin: Hi everyone. Welcome to Always Looking Up, the podcast where no one is overlooked and height is only a number, never a limit, hosted by me, Jillian Curwin. Each week I'll be having a conversation about what it is like to live in a world that is not necessarily designed for you.

In this week's episode, I sat down with Alice Sheppard. Alice is the founder and artistic director of Kinetic Light, as well as a choreographer and dancer in the company. Kinetic Light is an internationally recognized disability arts ensemble that working in the disciplines of art, technology, design, dance creates, performs and teaches at the nexus of access, queerness, disability, dance and race. We discussed her journey to becoming a dancer, the relationship and history between disability and dance, and her experience with flying across the stage. Let's get into it.

Hi, Alice.

Alice Sheppard: Hi Jillian.

Image Description: Alice Sheppard, a multiracial Black woman with coffee-colored skin and short curly hair, leans forward resting her cheek on her hand. She wears a black shirt and a gold necklace and smiles at the viewer. Photo by Beverlie Lord.

Jillian Curwin: How are you?

Alice Sheppard: It's been a kind of a wild day, but I'm good. I'm good. You?

Jillian Curwin: Good. Yeah, it's kind of…It's like, a little cold. It's supposed to be rainy here today in New York City.

Alice Sheppard: Oh you’re in New York, too?

Jillian Curwin: I am. I'm in New York. I've been here since May of 2021. I love it. But yeah, it's been an interesting morning, but I'm very excited to be having you on the podcast.

Why don't we start by having you tell my listeners a little bit about yourself?

Alice Sheppard: Okay, cool. Can I start with a self-description? So, if you haven't, if you don't have a good sort of mental image of what I might look like, but maybe it doesn’t matter. Anyway, whatever. Let's just start with a self-description. Okay. So I would describe myself as a multiracial black woman. I have a about shoulder length dyed blond hair with roots showing, and I'm really kind of proud of my hair right now because I haven't cut it since the beginning of the pandemic. And so this is, this is my kind of pandemic. My hair is my pandemic witness right now, it's complicated to describe skin color because of the hierarchies that cover colorism. So I usually say I have coffee colored skin. I am wearing no makeup and a lavender sweatshirt with mesh cutouts. Behind me is a gray, beige wall and I am close to an orange sofa.

Jillian Curwin: Very nice.

Alice Sheppard: End description.

Jillian Curwin: Very nice. And why don’t you tell my listeners a little bit about who you are and what you do.

Alice Sheppard: I'm a dancer and choreographer. I make dance. Some of it has been interesting in terms of like, aerial flight or use of ramp structures, but sometimes not. So, I make dance. I think a lot about dance. I write dance about dance, and disability, and race. And I sometimes make dance films, but that's what I spend my life doing and thinking about is dance.

Jillian Curwin: I love that and there's so much I want to get into with that. Before we do, I want to ask, how do you define being disabled?

Alice Sheppard: I don't define being disabled.

Jillian Curwin: Okay.

Alice Sheppard: Because there are any number of ways you could define it. Some are legal, some are social, some are political. And some are cultural. And for me, I would say disabled, some are medical. And for me, I would say disabled is an identity.

Jillian Curwin: I love that. And I agree. And I think that there are so many definitions of disability out there and, you know, part of it is, it's just, it's a part of who we are and that identity that we present to the world. And it seems so simple, but yet, you know, as you said, there are so many other definitions that make it so complex, but really it is just a part of who we are.

Alice Sheppard: Right. Yeah, that works. Yeah. So but, but ,and here's the difficult part of that like, why are you asking that question? Right. Why do we have to define disabled? Like what pressure are you responding to that makes the question an important question, like why do we have to define it?

Jillian Curwin: That's a good point. And I think the reason why I start my podcast episodes asking my guests that question, or depending on variations, depending on if they're a little person or if they're an accomplice or an ally, is because so often I feel like society tries to tell us what being disabled means, and trying to tell us what that definition is. And it's a chance, you know, I hope, for my guests, to like take that power back and to say, no, this is what being disabled means to me, and nobody else is going to understand it. My disabled experience is different from your disabled experience, is different from the next person's disabled experience. So giving them that, you know, their time to kind of define what it means to them because every answer has been different.

Alice Sheppard: Of course, I would hope that every answer is different. I love that. Yeah. Yeah.

Jillian Curwin: So I'm curious, kind of wanting to now go into the world of dance. When and how did you first enter the world of dance and find the art form?

Alice Sheppard: I found dance because, in my career as a professor, I went to a conference on disability studies in the university at Emory in 2004. I was just looking this up this weekend. It was February of 2004 I think, and I met there Homer Avila, who was a dancer, a disabled dancer. And I participated in his performance. He was dancing to The One Who Is. And I read some of that text. He had a series of audience members read text and throughout the performance. And that's what I did. And, you know, there I was watching for the first time in my life watching a disabled person dance. And of course, Homer was brilliant. And there's video out there, too, if you don't know Homer’s work, there's a ton of video out there. Homer was brilliant and beautiful and afterwards in the bar, long conversation and a dare. So when, after the performance, I didn't know no one, no one in the broad, broader world knew that this was going to be his last performance. And for me, it had just been an encounter with a person who's, you know, you have encounters and really beautiful conversations with people, but you don't ever expect them to see them again or you don't expect the conversation to have a direct effect.

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Alice Sheppard: But after that, when I heard he had died, I felt like I wanted to honor the dare and explore it, and see what I could do to become, to take up, to take up the…or have an experience of dancing. And, you know, it was not immediately obvious how I was going to do that, or where I was going to do that. But after that, I think it was a long while before I found a place to dance. And once I started, I was deeply curious. I mean, I, I think dance comes across as this art form that is exclusive because when you see it on stage, it looks so polished. That I think, you know, I imagine that, that people imagine that you could never do that. But when I started dancing, I didn't have a vision of a polished performance in my head. I was deeply curious about my own body, and what it felt like to be dancing and moving my body, and to explore movement in my body. And so for me, that moment was one of endless curiosity.

Jillian Curwin: And what was it like entering a studio for the first time?

Alice Sheppard: You know, it was a class by AXIS Dance Company, and there were a ton of other people there. Actually, no. I don't know. I say there are a ton of other people there. It seemed like there were a lot of people there. I don't know. It could have been eight, but it, you know, there were a lot of people there. Some were disabled and some were not and yeah, I mean, I was lost. I was lost. But, but they made it possible for me to understand, to participate in the movement. And they were teaching in such a way that I could participate with no movement experience. I could, I could participate in the movement and develop from there.

Jillian Curwin: Wow. I mean, first off, just wow. I think so much of your story is just beautiful. And you know, as a former dancer, I understand like, with seeing something on stage, like you see the lines and it's very clean, and it's very precise. And, you know, growing up, like, I just didn't see, even though I was trying to dance, like I didn't see my body capable of doing that. And there were no other disabled dancers in the studios I walked into. So the fact that you were able to be in a space dancing and doing, being a part of this performing art with other disabled artists is, it's an experience I wish I could have, and I hope that other people get to have that

Alice Sheppard: Yeah, me too.

Jillian Curwin: So when did it like, start to really like, I guess like, resonate with you to say like, this is what, this is where you were meant to be, and that you wanted to pursue it, you know, say that you wanted to then say, I want to be a dancer.

Alice Sheppard: So as I was taking this series of classes, I was trying to think about my life. It was an important time and I was trying to work out like, did I want to be in a, be a professor? How was I feeling? And I was driving from where I lived to the campus every day. And I noticed that in my head I was writing more and more elaborate resignation letters, and I was just like, I was just beginning and then, then the, the resignation letters started like, coming with an image, you know. I was like, cut, piece of photograph. Yeah, this resignation, this, these are it…To anyone who is currently in the Bay Area, if you imagine driving 80 for a long time, you're on the freeway for, you know, at least 45 minutes. And, you know, traffic's like so…I'm just like, driving and my mind is getting, there's time to imagine quite elaborate, quite expansive, quite detailed resignation letters. And so eventually these resignation letters started coming with pictures of me in ballet makeup. And I was like, that's really just not anything. And, but I didn't, I think I didn't know that I was going to be a dancer, or want to be a dancer, until I knew that dance is more urgent. But I didn't know it could be a life, is what I'm saying until Judy Smith.

There was an AXIS summer intensive at, like, a ten day summer intensive for dance in Seattle. And Judy Smith was leading this, and I'd organized this with AXIS. And I went. And somewhere along the line, it became clear to me that…Partly what was happening was a way to think about whether or not access was a possibility. And at the end of the intensive, Judy offered a chance to not, not a job with access, but a chance to come closer to the work and, and maybe train a little bit more with the company. And that was great because going into this intensive, I had quit my job and I had already made the decision that I, whatever it was I was going to do, I had quit. I had quit. And I was going to, I was going to work out some way to have dance in my life. And I didn't think of myself, of becoming a dancer, but I wanted to have dance in my life. And there it was. That was the beginning of the journey.

Jillian Curwin: Wow. And have you ever looked back?

Alice Sheppard: All the time. Because now I have a chance to reflect on my decision. And I always look back, and I evaluate, and think, and check that I'm in the right place. And I am.

Jillian Curwin: I love that. And, along the way, did anyone say no? Or did anyone say you shouldn't be doing this, this isn't for you, this isn't the place for you?

Alice Sheppard: It depends on what you mean by that. No one I was close to or who knew me said that. But, you know, in those days, the idea that disabled people wanted to dance and, and have careers in dance, was less familiar to people than it is now. So, like, there was all kinds of push back within the dance world. And that was the kind of pushback that, you know, that, that the field of physically integrated dance had been facing. So it was nothing to do with me personally, but, but everything to do with how the dance world recognized disabled dancers.

Jillian Curwin: Right. And I can imagine that part of you coming into the dance world, or disability coming into the dance world, is creating a whole new vocabulary of movement, especially because some of the techniques are hundreds of years old. So how did you create your style of movement, your movement vocabulary?

Alice Sheppard: So yeah, let's, let's just so I, you know…Disabled people have always danced, right? We’ve always danced. We've always danced. And in many ways, I, I am not you know, it's not like I invented, invented a world for myself. I came at the very beginning. Like it's, it wasn't like that. I mean, I came into the field and the conversations were already in place, you know, 40 odd years of work has happened. And, you know, there are people who have been in this field from the very beginning working out how to describe it to others, how to language it to others, how to, how to teach others. And so, like I was able to come to a context that was disability led, and that was invaluable. So I found myself in between two separate kinds of discourses. One is how does a disabled person exist in traditional ballet and modern vocabularies? Like, what kinds of, how do those techniques settle on our bodies? And then the second kind of question is a technique is more like what is the technique of how, how do, how do I move? Like, how does Alice Sheppard, individually, personally move?

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Alice Sheppard: And then there's a third question which is how do like, what are the techniques of moving in a manual wheelchair? So, there are three distinct questions going on, and it's not really always clear how all the questions relate to each other and how they kind of balance with each other. But there are three distinct questions going on. Does that make sense?

Jillian Curwin: It does. Was there one question that was perhaps at times or often easier to answer? And was there one that was more difficult?

Alice Sheppard: So, I think they're all difficult. But part of the question was really accessing bodies of knowledge. So, for example, I was really I…I studied in New York City with Kitty Lunn, who is a disabled ballet dancer. And one of the things that Kitty taught was, in addition to kind of a, a ballet technique and a modern technique, Kitty really taught a technique of manual wheelchair use.

Jillian Curwin: Gotcha.

Alice Sheppard: And, so I learned a lot about how to push my chair, like, how to shift the weight in my chair, and how to express in my chair so the, and how to allow my chair to express and not just be a device for locomotion. I mean, there's a real technique to this. And, you know, I think the other set of people who know some of these things are basketball players. Like, basketball players know how to use…and tennis players. But many basketball players know how these are things that are taught mainly in the context of sport.

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Alice Sheppard: And I don't think Kitty encountered them in the context of sport. I think she applied what she knew about ballet as a dancer, who had been a non-disabled ballet dancer, and then came into disability. She, I think she applied them to her own learning.

Jillian Curwin: Gotcha.

Alice Sheppard: But, but, but, but part of this is what I'm saying is that there are bodies of disabled expertise out there. There is wisdom out there. There is a ton of stuff out there that we should be able to access and learn. And so it should be the case that not everyone is inventing the wheel. All the time.

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Alice Sheppard: And so if you, I mean, there's this, this wisdom in our bodies, and in our particular disabilities, that if you are wanting to become a dancer, you know, you should be taught by someone who has that wisdom.

Jillian Curwin: I agree. And too often we're not able to like…All of my dance teachers growing up were not disabled, were not little people. And I remember one instance being asked to do a turn and to like, and my leg wasn't high enough, but it was as high as I was going to get it. And the teacher in like, trying to get my leg high like, didn't understand that it was, it just purely wasn't physically possible. It's not that my technique was bad. It just, my body. I didn't have enough leg to get where, the height it needed to go. And so, you know, I think it stresses the importance of, you know, we belong in dance. But, again, like you said, we've been in dance for a long time, but yet we're not being taught by teachers who understand what it's like to be in our bodies.

Alice Sheppard: Mmmhmm. Yeah. And, and understand the techniques that are, that are those bodies. Yeah. Yeah.

Jillian Curwin: I want to go into, then, where did the idea for Kinetic Light come from? Like, when did that start to, when did you start to think of, start of, creating that?

Alice Sheppard: So I had a long journey into choreo- before I was ready to be a choreographer.

Jillian Curwin: Okay.

Alice Sheppard: And I mean, there are some people who can just do it straight out of the bat. But you know, it took me a long time to understand that I wanted to say things in movement versus being somebody else's work.

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Alice Sheppard: And I started by making solos. I just started by making. But there wasn't, unfortunately there's no video of these that is ever going to publicly surface. But I started making solos.

Jillian Curwin: Okay.

Alice Sheppard: And then I started, I was, you know, there is a wonderful group in Chicago, Momenta, and every…Is it every year or every other year? I think it’s every year. They hold a festival called Counterbalance, which is of dance. And I was asked to be part of one and, and so then I began making a solo that was going to have a real audience. So like, oh, that's a whole different thing. Like, it's one thing to be making stuff that you don't anticipate will be seeing an audience, but it's another thing….And then Stephanie asked if I could, in fact, make a work for that particular group, Momenta, and I was like, oh my god, my first actual commission. And, and so things started happening. It's, it's odd. Chicago is really a, a creative home for me. Hey, Chicago.

I found Michael Maag by mistake.

Jillian Curwin: Okay.

Alice Sheppard: It, or not by mistake. Let’s call it by accident. I was invited by Claudia Alick to come and be on a panel, and Michael was on the panel, and the panel was about, you know, being a disabled artist in the performing arts. And we disagreed. And then I was back a second time and doing a performance, and Michael was there, and we just got talking, got talking and all kinds of ideas, and shared with him, and he shared with me. And in the course, that was in August of 2015, I think maybe.

Jillian Curwin: Okay.

Alice Sheppard: And anyway, we shared ideas. And this, this kind of project grew and I was, y’know, again, I know this because I was looking it up this weekend for a different reason. But there's a, there’s an email from me to Michael that says, “I have it. I have it. It's, it's going to be this. It's going to be this. And it's going to be about this. Let's do it.”

And so Kinetic Light started as a, a kind of collaboration between me and Michael. And then, and then there's another email just like a little later than that, like two to three weeks later, where I’m like Michael, it’s too big, I need to bring another dancer in, and that dancer’s Laurel. And I knew Laurel because we had met before like, over the Internet. She'd come to Oakland and had been around AXIS. And then she had also invited me to Atlanta, and I had been able to work with Douglas Scott from Full Radius as well. So, Laurel and I had connections and then there’s this like a, hey, Laurel, want to try this kind of thing? And then, in 2016, turned out that Laurel happened to be in the Bay Area and gave me a couple of days and we were in the studio together and I was like, this is going to happen. This is going to happen. At which point I was already in the middle of a separate conversation with, like, Olin College and Sarah Hendren about the ramp that would become the Descent ramp, and all the elements were just kind of like, falling in hard and fast. And so, in July of 2016, Kinetic Light, me, Laurel, and Michael and the ramp had our first rehearsals.

Jillian Curwin: Wow. And what was the creative process like? Once you started rehearsals, in creating and designing the shows?

Alice Sheppard: So, I mean like, so I want to just sort of say that, like, so Descent...Descent took years to, to create.

Jillian Curwin: Okay.

Alice Sheppard: I started thinking about it in, in late 2015. And it didn't see the stage until 2017.

Jillian Curwin: Wow.

Alice Sheppard: Yeah. So it, it didn't take place in the same kinds of ways, you know, it was kind of wild. So, I mean, it's first of all, I mean, the ramp itself is its own thing. Like, I knew going into this, I knew that there were like certain sections, and there was an idea, and in July and mainly though, the first set of questions were twofold, like, what on earth can we and can we not do?

Jillian Curwin: Mmmhmm.

Alice Sheppard: With this ramp, I mean. This ramp was like, is like, no other surface I've ever moved on. It is its own technique. Like, it requires like, some things you think you should be able to do and the ramp says no. And other things you think you can't do, but the slopes of the ramp enable you to do. Some of the things that, you know, regular wheeling on the street say, no, you should never do it that way, the ramp requires you to do it. The way that your body just doesn't want to do it.

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Alice Sheppard: So a lot of it was just kind of like, what if? Can we do this? Can we do that? What if? And yeah, Michael. So Michael, and Michael had, was drawing and sketching and videoing and working with stuff that, like, for, like, all day. And just, it was, it was a really, that first rehearsal was really, really intense and fun. Like, we would just come home at the end of the day beaten.

Jillian Curwin: As long as you're having fun. I can't imagine. Because, I saw Wired…

Alice Sheppard: Oh yes, the aerial piece.

Jillian Curwin: The aerial piece, which I have so many questions about that.

Alice Sheppard: Why don’t you just ask? I mean, why don’t you just ask?

Jillian Curwin: We're going to get there. We're going to get, as I was making my way there, because Wired was…I had no…My friends texted me, and I told Laurel this as well, they're like, hey, do you want to come see this show? That was all I was told. And I said, sure, because I, yeah, I had no-

Alice Sheppard: Well, thank you for being there.

Jillian Curwin: I loved it. I loved every second of it. Starting from just entering the space and seeing how much care and attention was paid to making sure that it was truly an accessible space for both the audience and the artists, because you walk into a lot of theatrical spaces here in New York City, and that's often not the case. Seeing so many disabled people in the audience and again, like, I hadn't really seen that. And there were so many other, there were other wheelchair users, or people with different disabilities. So seeing all these people come together, and seeing non-disabled audience members coming together to see this work and then seeing you fly like, I had never seen that before. So I want to ask, because I'm curious to hear your answer, Laurel was going to be curious to hear your answer as well, is what does it feel like to fly?

Alice Sheppard: Okay. Oh, I love it. Right. I mean, I wouldn't do otherwise. I love it. I love the physical sensation of, I love the physical sensation.

So, I did a bungee jump in New Zealand, and I just loved that. Oh, my god, that was awesome. I, I don't know. Okay. Okay. Do you swim?

Jillian Curwin: Yes.

Alice Sheppard: Can you describe what it feels like to enter the water? And what it feels like to leave the water? To be in the water?

Jillian Curwin: Okay. Entering the water and being in the water you start. you start to feel lighter. And then, when you're actually like, swimming, in movement, you really feel like you're gliding through, like there's nothing pushing against you. And it's like, very fluid. You feel very fluid. And like, coming out, you feel like, kind of the weight coming back to you. And then you start to feel really heavy again, whether it's you're lifting yourself out of the water, you're stepping out of the water. It feels like all the weight of, like, comes back on to you.

Alice Sheppard: So that's what it feels like flying.

Jillian Curwin: Okay.

Alice Sheppard: Except quicker, I guess. Like in, out, down, in, out, down, up, down, in, in, out, down, up, down, spin, spin, spin, spin, spin, spin, and down and in, out, down, up, down. Yeah.

Jillian Curwin: And is that your favorite part or your least favorite part? Or is it somewhere in the middle?

Alice Sheppard: I mean, I enjoy the whole physical ride of it.

Jillian Curwin: Okay. Where did the idea come from to say let's do a performance piece on wires and on bungies?

Alice Sheppard: So let's just back up for a second, right. So, we didn't invent flying.

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Alice Sheppard: There are deep histories of disabled people, and actually disabled dancers, doing aerial work. And so, so we are not people who invented it, and invented this, or so we're working within a tradition. And I want to be very clear about that, because you know Wired is...Wired is many things. And one of the really, really innovative parts of this is all of the different setups and all the different ways we fly and all of the different, you know. So, but it is to say that this is already working in a very complex and established tradition. So, Laurel used to joke that it would be easier to do an aerial work than it would be to do descent.

Jillian Curwin: And why is that?

Alice Sheppard: I'm sorry?

Jillian Curwin: And why is that?

Alice Sheppard: Because…Because, you know, she was thinking that silk, like a silk, silk thing would be easier than hauling the descent ramp around.

Jillian Curwin: Okay.

Alice Sheppard: But Wired started for me in a very different place. Wired started when I went to the Whitney Museum of Modern Art, and I saw the Melvin Edwards Pyramid Up and Down Pyramid, which is a sculpture made in barbed wire. And, you know, I, I saw that and a, like my stomach flipped and I, literally, I was there until like the end of the day. And, and then I was like, it's Sasha. Sasha Wortzel was the curator, and Madison Zalopany and I was like, was the Whitney's lead in education and disability at that point. And I was like, this is it. This. I am going to make a piece about barbed wire. I’m gonna, this is it. I'm going to make a piece about barbed wire. This is my, I know. You know. And I was just like, I was there outdoors on the High Line just being like, oh my god, oh my god, oh my god. For quite a while. And it made sense. Like, in many ways, an aerial work could have been about anything.

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Alice Sheppard: But it made sense for the piece about barbed wire to be an aerial work. Do you see what I mean? Like it, it wasn't ,I mean, it wasn't going to be the case that I set out to make a barbed wire...I was like…Okay, Kinetic Light’s next work is going to be about barbed wire and it's going to be aerial, but that wasn't how, it wasn't how it happened.

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Alice Sheppard: But seeing the barbed wire, seeing it, that made sense to me.

Jillian Curwin: Okay. And I think it, definitely you see, watching it like, you know, and it's interesting. When talking to Laurel she said, like, we don't want to like, we…The focus is on the art, it's not necessarily on the like, it, we're not, it's a story on display not necessarily the disability. I'm paraphrasing, it could be paraphrasing her incorrectly. I'm trying to remember the exact phrasing she said but like, that the focus is not necessarily on the fact that you are dancing in chairs. It's the story you're telling. And for Wired, like you said, it is about the barbed wire. And, you know, I’m wonder-, like what do you…? It's a very…I'm trying to figure out how I’m getting there it's like…what? Like, what are you hoping that the audiences see, both audiences members who may be disabled and audience members who are perhaps non-disabled like, what are you hoping that they're taking from the story that you're telling?

Alice Sheppard: Okay. So there's no way to control what an audience member sees.

Jillian Curwin: Mmmhmm.

Alice Sheppard: You can plan…

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Alice Sheppard: And intend. But there's no way to control what an audience member sees. And in a work like Wired, there is no single message, okay. This is, there's not a message to Wired that, that, and I think this is one of the things that is difficult with dance. It's like, there's not a message that you have to get. It's like, if you come to a show, I am not saying here is the message and if you don't get that message, you failed as an audience member. That's not, that's not that dance works. I know that it is unusual for audience members to see what we do. It's unusual if we’re on ramps. It's unusual if we're in the air. So, this is all unusual. But the artistic and aesthetic intent of the work is around the story and the history of the wire. It is not a story about disabled people flying.

Jillian Curwin: Right. And that's what I was, yeah, and that's what Laurel articulated that I very poorly tried to paraphrase and I apologize about that. But…

Alice Sheppard: It’s okay.

Jillian Curwin: And you've raised an interesting point that, you know, you can't tell audience members what they should be getting out of the show. You can't.

Alice Sheppard: Nor should you.

Jillian Curwin: Nor should you. And I agree and, and I think that sometimes kind of gets lost. I think that's, at times like, people think that you have to, that they're telling you something. And, you know, for me sitting in that audience, I saw the story, but it was so much, and this is speaking for myself, and like so much, just more about the experience and seeing, you know, taking it all in and like seeing that. And, but you still, you know, you see the I'm phrasing….I am just, and I think part of why I can't articulate it is because sitting in that space that night, I had never seen anything like it and never felt so seen by art, by dance, because I was told I couldn't be there for essentially my whole life. And I think that's maybe why I can't necessarily articulate what I got from it, because it was still, I'm like, still, you know, and it's been weeks, months later since I've seen it. I've just not, you know, just that power of feeling seen is... That’s how powerful it is.

Alice Sheppard: Mm. I mean, I love that. I, I love that because so many of our conversations are about that. It's…Our conversations are about, we have these conversations about where is disability in the work, but we have these conversations about where are disabled people in the work.

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Alice Sheppard: And that's not just, that is not just what is the disabled story of barbed wire, although there are tons of disabled stories of barbed wire that…But that is about, it's about planning for an audience experience. And we plan for that. But it's also about understanding and that, that there are cultural sensibilities and interpretive patterns within disability community.

Jillian Curwin: Yes.

Alice Sheppard: There’s like, a set of manners and expectations. The easy way to, to…One easy way to, to do this is to, like, for the most part, if you have existed within disability community for a long time, you come to understand that certain things are no, nos and yes, yeses.

Jillian Curwin: Yes.

Alice Sheppard: And so our work exists in that realm. And speaks to that realm. And is accountable to that realm.

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Alice Sheppard: So, when we get it right, uh huh, this is good. And when we have learning to do. okay. Well, we have learning to do. And, and so that's what I want for us.

Jillian Curwin: Yeah.

So then, kind of going into the next, into where I was going to go next is like, what's next? Like, what are you guys working on next? What's the future? Where do you see Kinetic Light going?

Alice Sheppard: Secret.

Jillian Curwin: Oh, okay.

Alice Sheppard: There are plans. There are plans. There are plans. And it will take a year or two to realize. I mean, I think that's the other thing. Right. So, let's just talk timelines. First began thinking about Descent in 2015, and Descent saw its first stage in 2017, and then re-development and final premiere in 2018.

Jillian Curwin: Wow.

Alice Sheppard: Wired...Now, now, granted, there was a pandemic.

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Alice Sheppard: But Wired, I started working, started working on Wired in 2019. And Wired didn’t see the stage until 2022.

Jillian Curwin: Wow. It’s years.

Alice Sheppard: It's years. Yeah, it's years. It's…I mean, yeah, it's years. It's not like six weeks and done.

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Alice Sheppard: So, I want to be cautious about like, we are not pushing something like that out the door every year.

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Alice Sheppard: So, give us a chance to root, to learn, and absorb. Things are in the pipeline. And you'll be seeing some stuff.

Jillian Curwin: Okay.

Alice Sheppard: Yeah. But…But I also want to set expectations that, you know, something like that takes time.

Jillian Curwin: Yes.

Alice Sheppard: Big time. So, yeah.

Jillian Curwin: Well, I'm very excited to see. I'm very excited just to know that there are things happening, recognizing that it's going to take time, is very exciting. And it also just means that you're going to have to come on again when this happens to tell me all about it.

Alice Sheppard: Oh, please.

Jillian Curwin: Yes.

Alice Sheppard: And so it also means you're going to have stay tuned. And like, if we have open rehearsals or things in New York,

Jillian Curwin: I'll be there. You give me an invite, I'll be there.

Who do you look up to?

Alice Sheppard: Oh, gosh. And, okay. So that's like a, there's a reflex answer.

Jillian Curwin: Okay.

Alice Sheppard: So the first like, when you said that, the first person that, that popped out of my mind was my mother. And, but there are, there are other answers. Like, to who do I look up to, in the dance world? Who do I...right? But that was the first thing that came to my mind.

Jillian Curwin: Okay. Love that.

Are there any questions I have not asked that you would like to answer?

Alice Sheppard: I want to know all about your dance experience. I want to know….I have a, I have a ton of questions. No, I'm good. I'm good.

Jillian Curwin: Okay.

Where can people follow you, follow Kinetic Light? And where can they see you and, recognize that you are, you have things in the works that you are developing and that's going to take time, but is there a way for audiences to come see you?

Alice Sheppard: Yeah. So if you are in New York, we are performing Under Momentum at Lincoln Center in February. That's February 17, 18 and 19. And that is our piece on mini ramps. So, not the big Descent ramps, but the mini ramps, which is a whole different set of like, negotiations of slopes and wheels and things.

Jillian Curwin: Okay. So that's in February at Lincoln Center.

Alice Sheppard: Yeah.

Jillian Curwin: I will have a link to that, if you want to still, if you can still get tickets, I will have a link to that in the show notes.

Alice Sheppard: I think so, yeah.

Jillian Curwin: Yeah. So, I'll have links. So, if you want to go see it, go see it.

Alice Sheppard: Come see us. Follow us on Instagram, @kineticlightdance. Follow us on Facebook, Kineticlight. We have a newsletter. Yeah.

Jillian Curwin: And if they want to follow you?

Alice Sheppard: Me, personally, I took a, I'm taking a break from the social medias, but I have an Instagram which is @wheelchairdancr without the E, and maybe I'll get back there. Yeah, I am, I took a break.

Jillian Curwin: Sometimes it's necessary, it's necessary to do that.

Alice Sheppard: Yeah. Anyway, maybe I'll get back. I, I think Kinetic Light has a big year coming up. And there’s going to be lots of news. But, there may not be any new dances, but lots of news.

Jillian Curwin: Ooh, I'm very excited. I can't wait to see what's happening next, to see more shows because, again, it was truly one of the most incredible artistic experiences I got to be an audience member for.

Alice Sheppard: Thank you. I-

Jillian Curwin: Thank you.

Alice Sheppard: I really appreciate you saying that.

Jillian Curwin: Thank you.

Alice Sheppard: Yeah. Cool.

Jillian Curwin: So, as a wrap up, I kind of do like an icebreaker, but at the end because I think it's more fun that way. I will say Laurel said that these were the hardest questions I asked, so just prepare yourself, but I have five categories and I just want to hear your favorite in each one.

Alice Sheppard: Hit it.

Jillian Curwin: Favorite book.

Alice Sheppard: Oh. God. Oh. Okay. Um, I actually can’t answer that. Don't have a favorite.

Jillian Curwin: Okay. Favorite TV show.

Alice Sheppard: Umm. Okay. Well...I'm going to go back. I don't have a favorite book or a favorite TV show, but I can answer this question differently. What do I go back to if I need, like, a complete brain break in the world is how I'm going to answer it. So, I go back to the Law & Orders for a complete brain break, the TV show.

Jillian Curwin: Love those. Do you have a book that you go back to if you need that similar kind of break?

Alice Sheppard: Yeah, but I'm not yet ready to share that. Keep going with the other categories.

Jillian Curwin: Okay. Favorite drink.

Alice Sheppard: Mezcal.

Jillian Curwin: Yes. Favorite piece of advice you've ever given. Or like, your go-to advice to a young disabled person and young dancer up-and-coming, however you want to interpret that question.

Alice Sheppard: My dad, life isn't rehearsal.

Jillian Curwin: Yes. And last one, favorite piece of advice you've ever received.

Alice Sheppard: Margaret Jenkins, performance is its own lesson.

Jillian Curwin: Oh, I really like that. I really like that. Do you want to go back to your go-to book when you need a break?

Alice Sheppard: No. No. I think I'll text you that.

Jillian Curwin: Perfect. Alice, thank you so, so much for coming on. It has been an honor speaking with you. I'm so excited to see what you and everyone at Kinetic Light has in store. And it's just, you know, again and again, thank you so much for that. For Wired and for all the other artistic work that you do. And if you can go see them, if you’re in New York City next month, go get tickets, I'll have the link in my show notes. Go get tickets. Go see it.

Alice Sheppard: Thank you. It's been real fun being here and also for, for, for saying the things. It means everything. Thank you for being there for us.

Jillian Curwin: Thank you.

Alice Sheppard: I really appreciate that.

Jillian Curwin: Of course. The final thing I just have to ask is for you to remind my listeners in your most fierce, most badass voice possible that height is just a number, not a limit.

Alice Sheppard: Oh.

Jillian Curwin: So, I just need you to say it.

Alice Sheppard: Well, you know, so this is really funny, right? Because if you're 20 odd feet up in the sky, height really is just a number not a limit. Alright cool.

Jillian Curwin: Always Looking Up is hosted by Jillian Curwin and edited and produced by Ben Curwin. Please make sure to rate, review, and subscribe, and follow on Spotify so that you never miss an episode. Follow me on Instagram @jill_ilana and the podcast at @alwayslookingup.podcast for updates and check out my blog JillianIlana.com for more content about what it is like to be a little person in an average sized world.

Thanks for listening. See you next week.