Jillian Curwin On Turning 28 And Answering Listener Questions

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Jillian Curwin: Hi everyone. Welcome to Always Looking Up, the podcast where no one is overlooked and height is only a number, never a limit, hosted by me, Jillian Curwin. Each week I'll be having a conversation about what it is like to live in a world that is not necessarily designed for you. Let's get into it.

Hi, everyone. This week there is no special guest. It is just me and the microphone talking to myself, literally talking to myself. I am seeing myself reflected in a computer screen. It has been, I think it has been almost a year to the day. Ben, if you're listening and I'm wrong, feel free to jump in and correct me. But I think it has been about a year since I've last recorded a solo episode.

Ben Curwin: Ben here. Our eagle-eared listeners and yes, that is a thing, no need to Google it, will remember that Jill's last solo recorded episode was episode 59: Jillian Curwin On My Balancing Act, which was released on July 24th, 2022, in honor of Disability Pride Month. Not quite a year, but you know, it's close.

Jillian Curwin: So, as I'm recording this, I am 20 days away from turning 28. So I just wanted to give a quick life update, talk about my feelings, kinda talk about some things that have happened and also answer some questions.

So to start, I'll say the biggest change in my life since my last solo episode, I don't think I've actually said on the podcast yet, is that I do have a new job. I started in this new role, in this new career about a month ago, and I'm really liking it. I love the people I'm working with. I'm learning a lot. It's definitely more getting me in a space I want to be, in regards to advocacy, it's definitely giving me the tools and the people to learn from in order to do that, to be a better advocate. And the one thing I just really want to touch on is how taken care of I felt in the sense that they really worked with me, both my supervisors as well as facilities, to make the space accessible and to meet my reasonable accommodations. They actually went above what I was asking for and what I was expecting, and I say that in a really good way, and they really allowed me to make the workspace fully accessible, and you know, I feel that I'm heard in that, you know, at my job and specifically in regards to just being a disabled person there. So, yeah, I'm really excited to see what this new career has in store. Yeah, that's I think probably one of the biggest changes since, you know, it's just been me and the mic.

You know, I mean, I can't believe it'll be, it'll be two years in May since we started Always Looking Up, the podcast, and I want to take the time to say first, first thank you to my brother. This podcast truly would not exist without him. I know I've said that off-mic to people, but I'll say it on the mic, if I haven't yet, and on the record. This podcast would not exist without my brother Ben. He is the editor and producer. He does all the audio editing, which I do not know how to do at all. So, just in that aspect alone with the audio, this would not have existed. And you know, when we started transcribing it, he does the initial transcriptions, and has helped with making them as closely, you know, helping make them perfect, so that way we can make the podcast more accessible to my listeners and to my audience. And, you know, he and I are in constant communication and brainstorming ways to make this podcast bigger and better. So, you know, I'm very proud of him. And, you know, I know for a fact, even though he's not here with us, that my dad is very proud of us. And I know with certainty that my mom is also very proud of us, that we're doing this together as brother and sister. So thank you, Ben.

I also want to take the time to thank every single guest I've had come on so far for trusting me, for coming into this space, for feeling welcome and heard in this space. I, you know, start every episode before we hit record and tell my guests that this episode, this is their space, this is their platform. I'm just amplifying their voices and making sure that their story is told and that they are being represented in the way that they want to be. So I want to say thank you to every guest who has come on, in trusting me. It is an honor and a privilege getting to hear all of your stories and getting to talk about living in a world that is not necessarily designed for us in different ways, and getting to learn from all of you and, you know, to and, you know, thanks in advance to all the guests coming on in the future, you know, for coming on and sharing your story. You know, one thing I've learned, or I wouldn't say I've learned, one thing I've known and I'm trying to change is that disabled voices aren't heard. And I know this has been repeated time and time again on my platforms, particularly the podcast, but on my other platforms as well, that representation matters and feeling seen and feeling heard is so powerful. So getting to do this for the next generation who maybe didn't hear these stories, for my younger sel  who certainly didn't hear these stories, you know, that's, that alone…it's like, it's, that’s what drives me to keep doing this, to keep going to take a chance and reach out to people who I thought would never come on and being able to talk to them. I’ve talked to people who I've looked up to for years, people who are trailblazers, who are leaders in, not just as advocates, but in their respective spaces, in their respective industries. Getting to talk to them and, you know, it's, it's a privilege that I am forever grateful for. And it has enabled me to be a better advocate as well as to discover what I'm capable of.

I think growing up, I was very...No, I’m not gonna say, “I think”. I was very timid in regards to speaking up and speaking out, you know, and I have said before, like, I didn't really embrace the term disabled as a term that identifies me until relatively recently, until coming to New York and finding the disabled community and meeting some incredible advocates who have become my best friends. I never thought I was disabled. So understanding what that means and not being afraid to call things out when things are wrong, when I see injustices, however minor and major, and just making my voice heard. Again, it goes back…representation matters, and feeling heard is powerful, and I'm not afraid to do it anymore.

Things have happened to me in regards to being a little person as recently as like, last week that before I would just kind of, you know, complain about it to my mom, but, you know, now that's not…I want to call it out because it shouldn't happen, shouldn’t happen to me. It shouldn't happen to any other little person. It shouldn’t happen to any other disabled person. And I think that's another thing that I've learned that a lot of, or not that I've learned, but that I've really kind of gained an understanding about is how there is such a dehumanization of those living with a disability. And it's not talked about. You know, you're not going to hear these stories in the media. You're not going to hear these stories on the news. And, you know, if this was with any other group like it would be called out. It's clear how wrong it is. And yet it's just, it's not talked about. And, you know, going into the year ahead, particularly with what's happened to me recently, you know, I want to call it out. I want to talk about it. I want to talk about it with people who agree with me. And I want to talk about it with people who disagree with me to understand their perspective and to help me bolster my argument or maybe change it.

First, I’ll talk about, you know, what happened to me last week. I was on the subway and…I was on the subway on my way home from work, and I was standing, leaning against one of the poles in the center because that was the closest handhold thing I could get, there weren't seats available. And someone else comes on and also grabs the pole but like, rests his arm on my head and like uses…basically uses my body as their armrest. And I kept trying to shift and trying to move and trying to, you know, make him aware that he was resting his body on mine and that it was not okay. And he just, like, almost kind of like, kept following my head and, you know, like not wanting to move his arm. And like, looking back, I probably should have amplified my voice more and said, please don’t, instead of just, like, trying to adjust. But I'm on the subway and it's like, loud and it's just, there’re definitely things I wanted, I would have done differently. But, you know, like, just that simple act of dehumanization is not okay, you know, treating me like an object, like an armrest. I don't exist for you to rest your arm on my head. Little people don't exist for you to rest your bodies on them. We just…that's not…No, don't do it.

The second one is something that I definitely want to talk more about, and it's something that I want to explore since it happened to me, which is again being treated like an object, but kind of the sexual dehumanization of those with a disability, you know. If you’re a little person, you might understand right away what I'm talking about, but I'll say dating as, as a little person, as a disabled person is hard. I’m on the apps I go back and forth with hiding my disability, with hiding the fact that I'm a little person, whether that's through cropping the photos or trying to hide the height if possible. I go back and forth with it, not knowing if I want to reveal right off the bat or kind of have them earn it. But in this one instance I was talking to this guy, and this happened a while ago, we were talking and he basically, you know, implied that I was an object that needed to be tossed around. And I’ve talked about dwarf tossing so already that was a no for me. And I think I…this was…that conversation was like, in October, like he said, that. I was done, not done, but just the fact that he immediately thought he could say that. And, you know, he's not the first to just kind of like, imply that I'm an object. I've had men ask me what sexual favors will I do for them standing up to, like, start the conversation. Yeah, that's not a conversation starter. Please don't start conversations like that with anyone. Not even if you're trying to date, like don’t. Just don't don't do that. But then, you know, a couple weeks ago, he messaged me on WhatsApp said, “Hi, how are you?” I didn’t remember if this was the same guy until he sent me a video that was unsolicited and explicit and that is all I will say about it, that all I'm comfortable saying about it. And the fact that like he just thought that that would be okay, and that in that instance I don't necessarily know if that's because there was this like dehumanization there, because I know that's happened to non-disabled, average-height women before, receiving texts and images like that. But I think, you know, carrying over to what he said to me before, and knowing that it's not the first time and it's not the last, you know. There is this like, treatment of little people, and this is me speaking for myself, where I'm not treated, where I feel like I'm not being treated like a person and that I’m very, like, hesitant to show off my body in certain ways, because, like, I know it'll be fetishized and that's not what I want to be like. It's feeling like I can never be seen as sexy or feeling like I can never be seen, as my body, of something that other people desire, you know? And it's like it's even reflected in like, movements like the body positivity and self-love like, I don't see my body there and I want to. And, you know, that's something I want to talk about on the podcast. And I want, you know, my younger self, certainly never. She struggled with loving her body and just not being mean to it when looking at it in the mirror. And there are days when I still do, and I'm sure there will be days in the future where I do. But, again, going back to what I said before, representation is powerful and to be seen in that sense and to, you know, talk about disability, you know, as being sexy, as disabled bodies, as sexy, not sex objects. There's a difference there. And that's a conversation that I think needs to be had because again, like nobody should have received the message, you know, should be referred to as an object that needs to be tossed around. And the fact that he said it to a little person, knowing that I’m a little person, he knew that I was a little person because I know at that time my pictures were not cropped so you could fully tell that I was, I had a little person body. Like, it's things like that, you know, that makes me wonder, what do we have to do just for disability, disabled bodies to not be objectified? To not be dehumanized? And again, it sounds so simple. Like, it's like obviously you just treat them like a person, but it doesn't happen. It doesn't happen. You know, we're pointed out, we're stared at, we're laughed at. We're taken photos of as if we're objects on display. And why is that okay? Why do we think as a society that that's okay, that that's acceptable, that if I call that out, that I'm wrong, that I'm the one being rude and I'm the one being offensive, but you're the one objectifying me. Yeah. So that's, you know, I’ve wanted I'm figuring out ways to talk about that more and to kind of make that part of some things we talk about, so if you're listening and you want to talk about it, let me know and let's have a conversation whether you agree with me or not. Let's have this conversation.

But now I was sent some questions and I want to answer them. So let me put them up here. Okay. First one, why did you decide to do the questions at the end of my episode instead of the beginning at the end of my episode.

So, I'm assuming this is referring to my five favorites. I wanted to do that…So originally, if you listen to my really, really, really, really early episodes, the last question, fun question I asked my guests was, I think it was who…if you could have anyone over for dinner, who would it be, alive or dead? Who would it be and what would you eat? And while I love that question, I kind of wanted to make it, you know, more rapid fire, more fun, and kind of get to know the person. After talking about an issue, particularly one, like kind of just end it on a fun and positive note. And icebreakers are always really awkward. Like, I never liked icebreakers. We would do them all the time in my youth group activities, and I never liked icebreakers. I would never know what to say to them, but I think, you know, the podcasts, recording the podcast and having that conversation is kind of breaking the ice, so this is just kind of like…I like doing it at the end. It’s just a fun way to wrap it up. And as I've said before, it's my podcast, so I think it's more fun that way.

My company is currently working towards a new marketing campaign aimed towards inclusivity and representation. How would you go about wording for marketing? For instance, I want to showcase people with disabilities glasses, albinism, braces, etc.

Oh, that's a really good question. I think, to start and this again might sound really simple, is if you want to include these people, include them. Make sure, though, you're also including disabled people behind the scenes and you know, as creatives, not just in front of the camera, and listen to them, really, like, listen to them, make sure that they're being heard. And if they're calling you out, if they're saying something is wrong, or if they're saying like this is ableist, this is sending the wrong message, listen to them. And, you know, make sure, you know, disability is incredibly diverse. You're not going to represent every single disability in every single campaign and every single image, but a great way to start is just to start, is to make sure when you're casting that you're looking at disabled actors, disabled models, whatever campaign you're doing, make sure you're including disability, both on as talent as well as creative and behind the scenes. And listen to those disabled voices and show that you're really listening. And don't treat it as a one-off as well. I think that's also important. I think sometimes we'll see these huge campaigns, but they're just treated as on- offs and we never see disability again. Don’t do that. Disability is not a one-off.

Okay, next question. What are your top five wish lists for making life a bit more functional for little people? For instance, I often think of what taking a flight experience might be like for you and ways that this could probably be handled differently.

Oh, I've never talked about flying while disabled as a little person. I've talked about how, you know, I know I've had conversations about the airlines, particularly in regards to how they treat wheelchair users. Flying as a little person is, is an interesting experience, to say the least. I've been treated really well, really respectfully, and also have been treated really poorly. Top five. So I think first, the first thing that comes to mind, at least in regards to first answering the flight question, is making sure that your flight attendants will help those little…who can't reach, put their bag away. I was recently on a flight where, or not recently, the last time I think I flew and I had a carry-on that had to be stored overhead. And I brought that up to the gate attendant and was basically told that they're not under any obligation to help me, that the flight attendants [are] under no obligation to help me, and that they can actually like, they can refuse. And that just doesn't make sense to me, or the way they go about it. And there might be a reason why that, they can't. But clearly I'm someone who can't put my bag away, but I should be allowed to have a carry-on bag that needs to be stored overhead. So, I think kind of answering those questions in a more respectful way, because then I was like, you know…And I was lucky. I was traveling with my mom at the time, so I knew she would have been able to help me. But, you know, when traveling by myself, I don't know what I would have…I would have just kind of asked and hoped, or at least have waited for a passenger. I will say I've never been denied by a flight attendant when asking for someone to help me with my bags. But like, just the way that I was told flat out no. And that they are no, under no obligation to help me when it's clear that I have a disability, that, you know, I'm a person of short stature. Yeah. So I think that's one.

Other things I would love to just see stools in places, particularly bathrooms, public bathrooms. You know, we've seen them in some supermarkets where like, they'll fold up and then come down and, you know, like, those are great seeing those stools are great because there's nothing more...I don’t wanna say humiliating. I guess humiliating is the right word, or like embarrassing or like. you just kind of are put it, in a state of like you don't know what to do when you go to try to use the bathroom and you can't reach the sink or you can't reach the soap, but you could turn on the water because then it's like, what do you do? And that's why, you know, I do always carry hand sanitizer, but it's like, wanting to make sure that people know that I'm clean and that I'm washing my hands after using the bathroom. That's a big one.

Again, seeing more little person representation in regards to disability representation. You know, there are a few exceptions, but we're really not included in marketing, in entertainment, in news and the media. Like, just to see more little people, that's another one. So, I guess that's three.

I would love to see, in terms of like, and I think this’ll go into I guess in the next two will kind of go…referring to the two things that I love most. And the first one will be fashion, particularly seeing brands like Tommy Adaptive start including little people in their designs, especially because they're already doing it. They have. they've already moved in the adaptive fashion space. They've entered it. They've figured it out. So, seeing that little people representation, there, and seeing little people representation in fashion in general as models. I've seen some, you know, incredible work being done by influencers behind the scenes. But I now want to see models on the runways and in editorials in the way that we are starting to see…And this is you know, we still have a long, long way to go. If you've heard any of my episodes with some of my friends who are disabled models, we still have a very long way to go in disability representation as a whole. But seeing greater little, seeing any little person representation, because we're still not even there yet in regards to little people and people with dwarfism.

And then in the fitness space, which is the space that I've talked about before, and so another space that I'm passionate about and try to see greater disability representation. I think that's one. Just seeing greater disability representation, not just as trainers, as instructors, but also, as I've seen some companies also trying to move into the adaptive fitness space, thinking of ways to adapt products for little people. I think obviously the big one I've talked about many, many times is Peloton, and being able to…I would love to be able to ride a true Peloton bike. I do love my bike, my kids stationary bike that I have right now. But I, you know, I want to believe it's possible that one day I will be able to go take a class in studio. You know, recently, as of this recording a couple of weeks ago. I just took my first run class in studio and was nervous up until I stepped onto the treadmill that I wasn't going be able to use it because there, you know, on a website, they say that you have to meet a minimum height requirement and I don't meet it, but I was able to take the class and nobody said anything. So I didn't get… no one said anything. If there was a concern, I would have talked about it. But, you know, seeing that there was a height requirement going in, I was nervous that I was going to be told no, or that I would get on the treadmill and things would be out of reach, but it actually was accessible. But I didn't know that. So if I saw if the wording was different, or if I saw a little person on it, or saw someone of short stature, just again, seeing that representation, you know, it's powerful because I walked in thinking I was going to be told I would be too short to walk or too short to run. So I think that was five. Let's go with five. That was five. Yeah.

Where do you see yourself ten years from now?

Oh that's tough. I don't know. I don't, I, I don't know because a year ago I didn't see myself here. I'm hoping at this, you know…I hope ten years from now I would love to see Always Looking Up really be a brand. You know, I have big dreams for myself, and big dreams for this platform, and turning it into something more than even just the podcast, which, you know, two years ago I didn't think Always Looking Up was going to be a podcast. So yeah, I mean, you know, ten years from now I'd also love to be, hopefully, I'd love to be a mom to at least one child, whether it's average height or a little person, I don't care. But, you know, I'd love to be a mom, and have a family, and hopefully just be in a world that is more accessible than it was for me, you know, at present, and continuing to make the world more accessible for the next generation. Yeah, I know that’s like, very vague that like, that’s... I’ve got big dreams.

What are some of your dating prerequisites?

Oh, sense of humor. That's a big one. You have to be able to make me laugh. I don't, and I think I've said this, but if I haven't yet, I'll say it here. I don't discriminate. I'm not looking for someone who's average-height. I'm looking for someone who's a little person. I'm just looking for a good guy who will treat me right, always respectful, can dish it as well as take it. Is, you know, makes me laugh. I understand that, particularly if I'm dating someone average-height, that they're going to ask questions. I totally get that as long as they're respectful and asking them and don't objectify me and don't objectify my body. Yeah. Just had to be like a good guy. Really. Yeah. Honestly, dating's been hard. I’m definitely trying to put myself out there more, but yeah. Dating for me, for speaking for myself, dating has been hard but you know, I’m trying to also put myself out there.

If you had to make a list of do's and don'ts for those who are ignorant to your situation, let's call it Do's and Don'ts for Dummies, lol, what would some of the lists contain?

Oh, I think I've definitely said this before, as in within the space of this episode, and do treat me like a person. Do, if you're going to ask questions, ask them respectfully. Again, if you ask a question respectfully, if you genuinely don't understand something about me being a little person, or something about the community, or me being a disabled person, if you have a question, you ask it respectfully, I am more than happy to answer. Again, I am speaking for myself. Everyone is different. Every individual is different. If you choose to be ignorant to my answer, then that's, that's a don’t. Don't point. Don’t stare. Don't laugh. Don't take pictures of me. Don't touch my body in, without my consent. Again, it seems like this all seems so like, common sense. But you'd be, if you're a little person or a disabled person, you wouldn't be surprised. But I'm sure for those, for some of my average-height listeners, you might be surprised that this happens on, some people, almost on a daily basis. Yeah. Treat me like a person. I think that's just the biggest one. And you know, don't you know, don't assume also that I'm helpless. Assume that I might need help because obviously, again, I live in a world where it's designed for someone who's of average height and it's not designed for a little person so things are very much out of reach. But that doesn't mean I'm helpless either. I just might need help.

If you had to move from New York, where would you see yourself living?

For me, it was always New York. But if I really had to live anywhere else, and I've been told by a friend of the podcast, one of my best friends, Lucy, that this country will adopt me. I would see myself in London. I don't know why I have such a love for it. I went there in 2018. I did an international sport business program in London. Worked, we worked at Windsor Castle for three days running a triathlon, running as in, like, behind the scenes, not actually running the triathlon. And it was one of the most incredible experiences I've had in my life, and certainly professional career so far. And there is just something about London and England... I would move there in a heartbeat. Keeping it coming back to the States. If I was in anywhere, in any other city besides New York in the US, probably DC where you know, I'm an advocate at heart, born and raised by advocates, and if I’m not doing it in New York, I think I'd be doing it in D.C.

Oooh, okay. This is the last one, and this is a really interesting one. If you could have chosen your own name, what would it have been?

I have never thought about that before, but that's really interesting. I used to say growing up that I felt that my parents broke a streak, that it…I don't think that wasn’t being intended to make. But it was happening. So on my dad's side, I'm the fourth girl, fourth grandchild, fourth girl. And, you know, before me there was Rebecca, Rachel and Sara. So, I always said that I should have been Leah, or Leah, but Leah, you know, kind of going back to the four, the matriarchs of Judaism. And I don't know why my parents didn't name me Leah, but that's kind of what I always thought.

I do have a name for my daughter, though, so I guess future husband, if you're listening, our daughter's name is already picked out, it’s already decided. I'm not budging on it. Her name will be... you know, I’ll keep that a surprise. I’ll keep that a secret. But I do, I do have our daughter’s name picked out. But yeah, I think if I could have chosen my own name, I think just to kind of keep that where we were going in that, and I don't think it was intentional. Any of my aunts, or uncles, or cousins, if they know, can tell me if I'm wrong, I don't think it was intentional. But yeah, I think it would've been Leah

And I also do love, I love my middle name. I love the name Ilana, and I used to be annoyed because I think, because I used to go by Jill and Jill Ilana doesn't sound pretty. But Jillian Ilana I do love, but I also do love Ilana with an I. I do love my middle name. I like my first name too, mom, but I really do love my middle name. So, yeah. I guess I guess Ilana or Leah. Yeah. So yeah.

So, that's all the questions that I got. Looking forward to the year ahead. I've, you know, been doing outreach. If you're listening and you have been on the podcast before and want to come on and talk about something else that you're passionate about, that we didn't cover in your first episode, if you want to just share more of your story, feel free to reach out, I would love to have you back on. If you haven't been on the podcast and you're open, and you want to share your story, reach out. I, you know, I create this space to amplify the voices of other little people, other people in the disabled community, as well as allies and accomplices to, again, talk about living in a world that wasn't necessarily designed for us.

So with that, you know, as I head into my 28th year, there’s a lot I'm looking forward to and you know, thank you all so much for listening for nearly two years at this point and for supporting the podcast. Every time you share the post, every comment, every like, it means the world to me and yeah, so…

And now, this is just to wrap things up, this is your friendly reminder that height is just a number, not a limit.

Always Looking Up is hosted by Jillian Curwin and edited and produced by Ben Curwin. Please make sure to rate, review, and subscribe and follow on Spotify so that you never miss an episode. Follow me on Instagram at @jill_ilana and the podcast @alwayslookingup.podcast for updates and check out my blog JillianIlana.com for more content about what it is like to be a little person in an average sized world.

Thanks for listening. See you next week.

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