Jillian IlanaFebruary 21, 2023Comment

Sami Sage On Why We Can't Ignore Disabled Stories

Jillian IlanaFebruary 21, 2023Comment

Image Description:
A graphic with a two photo boxes. The first is of Jillian, a woman of short stature with brown hair wearing an olive green draped blouse, black pants with gold buttons, and black boots. The second box is a photo of Sami, a woman with brown hair wearing a black top with sheer sleeves, smiling. Above the photos is the text “Listen Now - Why We Can’t Ignore Disabled Stories”. Below is the text “With special guest, Sami Sage - @alwayslookingup.podcast

Jillian Curwin: Hi everyone. Welcome to Always Looking Up, the podcast where no one is overlooked and height is only a number, never a limit, hosted by me, Jillian Curwin. Each week I'll be having a conversation about what it is like to live in a world that is not necessarily designed for you.

In this week's episode, I sat down with Sami Sage. Sami is the Co-Founder and Chief Creative Officer of Betches Media - a female founded and led media and entertainment brand that provides a space for all women to get real about life and is funny, honest and unfiltered. We discuss how Governor Ron DeSantis’s efforts to eliminate DEI initiatives will impact the disabled and other marginalized communities, why disabled stories, or the impact political decisions have on the disabled community, aren’t often covered in the media landscape, how mental health fits into the disability rights movement and conversations, disability representation in scripted and reality-based content, and much, much more. Let’s get into it.

Hi, Sami.

Sami Sage: Hi, Jillian. Thank you so much for having me. I am thrilled to be here.

Jillian Curwin: Thank you so much for coming on. I am so excited to be talking with you today.

Sami Sage: Me too. I mean, we've DMed, we've met in person, and now we are, now we are on the mic together. So, I'm excited to get into it.

Jillian Curwin: I'm so excited this is finally happening. I cannot wait.

For my listeners who may not know who you are, why didn't you tell them, give them a little bit introduction as to who you are, what you do.

Sami Sage: Yeah. So I am one of the three co-founders of Betches Media. We started Betches, I started Betches with my, two of my childhood friends 12 years ago. Actually, the anniversary is in two days. And we, you know, we started Betches and, you know, we've, you know, built it into this really big company. I don't know if, you know, if someone's, you know, seen the Instagram, you know we have podcast, newsletters. And yeah, I also, you know, sort of is like my main focus is working with Betches news and activism under the Betches Sup. And I do a daily, a daily podcast where I break down the news, all the headlines, in 5 minutes and just, you know, give it a little bit of snark and with some commentary and… It's called the Morning Announcements. So, you know, you can get it and it's just like a quick way to know pretty much everything that's going on, and comes out every day. So yeah, that is my, that is my main focus these days.

Jillian Curwin: That’s amazing. And if you don't listen, if you don't subscribe to the Morning Announcements, I highly encourage you do so. It starts my morning every day. And I just, I love it. It’s the best way to like, kind of start, figure out what's happening in the morning, figure out what I missed the night before, and just kind of like, put me in the right mood for the day.

Sami Sage: Thank you. It is, it's real quick. I mean, it takes longer for me to do it than it does to….you know, for everyone to listen to. But I just feel that it is such a, you know, you can, like, get what you need to know and move on. And…

Jillian Curwin: Exactly.

Sami Sage: You know, if you sort of take a little bit of a left, a more left leaning view on things, then you would especially enjoy it, I think.

Jillian Curwin: Exactly.

I want to start by asking a form of the question that I always ask my guests is, how do you define being an ally to the disabled community? Or to marginalized communities in general? Because I would definitely say that you are an ally and an accomplice.

Sami Sage: Thank you. Well, I think that, I mean, I think the number one thing is that you really can't like, call yourself an ally…It’s kind of like calling yourself, like, humble or unbiased.

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Sami Sage: Like, you just do certain things that you, like, by definition, you can't like…Sure you can, like, you can say I try to be an ally. You know, I think that that's…or an aim, or something like that. Like that's a, I think a valid thing to say about yourself. But I think that… Well, thank you for saying that about me. I appreciate that. But I think that it's really, I mean, I think it's as, with anything, there are degrees, you know, with allyship or accomplice...accompliship?

Jillian Curwin: Accomplicity?

Sami Sage: Accomplicity. Yeah.

Jillian Curwin: Let’s go with that.

Sami Sage: With, you know, helping marginalized communities. And I think it's sort of like, you know, it can be done in like a big sweeping action, like fundraising, or starting a nonprofit, or actively, you know, having your job or something you're doing, or your message be devoted towards helping a marginalized community or many. But I think that, like for anyone who's just wants to sort of get closer to trying to be an ally, I think it's about wherever you can, consuming the voices and opinions of various people…

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Sami Sage: Who come from different communities or different experiences. It's not all about like race, obviously. I think a lot of this is just understanding the experiences of different people and taking them in and then orient it, and then putting things - decisions you make, whether it's at work, or just various decisions, or your opinions when you're voting, let's say, or just general conversation - putting that any sort of concept or any sort of issue through the filter of how it affects groups other than yourself. So, I, I mean, if that is that like too vague, I mean, I'm trying to…

Jillian Curwin: No, I don't think it is. And I think it's, you know, you touch on something as like always, especially with these conversations happening right now, and what we're going to get into in a minute, you know, it feels like we always try to put it on ourselves. But, I think part of trying to be a good ally and like you said, like you can't necessarily call yourself that, you kind of just have to be it, is putting your is, you know, recognizing that it's not always about you. And it's not always your perspective. It's you listening to other people's voices, listening to other people's opinions, even those who may differ, to try to understand what they're talking about and where they're coming from, but then still trying to just do better and be better.

Sami Sage: I also think sometimes it's about like, shutting up.

Jillian Curwin: Yes.

Sami Sage: You know, there are some issues when…Something I do struggle with because I, you know, speak publicly a lot about issues…

Jillian Curwin: Mmmhmm.

Sami Sage: And I don't necessarily have time to cover every issue.

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Sami Sage: And then the problem with that becomes, what am I leaving out? And then I'm being irresponsible as a curator. So that's actually just, as a personal note, like something I personally deal with in, with how-to, you know, manage my own social media versus, you know, my work that I'm actually, you know…So I try to make…that's, you know, I think why the Morning Announcements is really where I can put as many stories as I, I mean in theory, within reason I can put all sorts of stories. And I will say like, something I really do focus on is trying to surface stories that are not obvious and that are, that are particularly focused on smaller seeming or, you know, more targeted or niche issues. But that really do affect like, actual people. And whether it's like, you know, whether it's a small community or a small group of people that matters too. Like…

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Sami Sage: The issue is that I think that there's this feeling like, so many like, anyone can fall through the cracks in American society. There's just no safety net. And that's why I think that kind of when…It's obviously not possible for everyone to like, take up every issue of citizen engagement.

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Sami Sage: But I think that generally, when you're trying to create safety for, for the more overlooked or vulnerable people in America, what that, in theory, should do is make that feel more spread out. Because I think part of the problem, and part of why there, there is such a like, desperate cry for allyship is that there's just this feeling like, you know, there's a lottery here and like, it's like, what is your day to be fucked by the country and it’s policies?

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Sami Sage: You know?

Jillian Curwin: Yes.

Sami Sage: So, yeah. That's kind of my feeling on things.

Jillian Curwin: I agree. And I think it's also even when talking about like, the larger issues that people are talking about that you don't necessarily need to cover on the Morning Announcements, because everyone is talking about it. They're only talking about it from such a narrow lens, and not recognizing that this…decisions that our policymakers are making, or other issues, affect such a wider range of people. But yet they want to only focus it on a small section of that. And, you know, that's why, again, like with what you do with the Morning Announcements, you kind of talk about how it affects other people. And I think that’s, you know, what conversations that need to be having on a larger scale when talking about these issues, when talking about the decisions, is not even if maybe the policymakers want it, the focus, to be on one sect of people…

Sami Sage: Yeah.

Jillian Curwin: Recognizing that their decision is going to make a greater impact and talking about what that impact could be.

Sami Sage: Right. Well, I think that…Yes, exactly. Like there's more marginal, you know…

Jillian Curwin: Yes.

Sami Sage: No pun intended, impact in talking about another angle of, you know, a commonly talked about issue, let's say, like a, a budget…

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Sami Sage: That's coming out of Congress, let's say. But, I think even beyond that, the higher up you get in like, institutional power in America, the whiter, more male, and wealthier you get, just by fact. So, you know, while, obviously I have a company and like we're really successful, I would not call us like proximal to like real institutional power. Like, you know, we're not owned by a big broadcast company, for example. And I think that you see that the decisions, the, the more decisions that come out of sort of like that higher institutional power like…And I'm not saying that like…Let's say in government, you know, you have like AOC, for example, but like…

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Sami Sage: The real institutional power was with Nancy Pelosi. You know?

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Sami Sage: The closer, those…The decisions that tend to come out of the higher up in that quote hierarchy, you go, tend to be, in my opinion, more blind to different, different needs and different communities other than their own. Like, yes, people are trying to get their voice in the mix and trying to like, stand up for themselves. And I think more…As, as institutional power is less solely white, wealthy, and male, we're getting closer to that. But at the end of the day like, ultimately, I think that when you don't have like, a diverse decision-making institution, you're just not going to get diverse perspectives, like by fact.

Jillian Curwin: Right. And I think we see that on a daily basis, on a large scale, in terms like the small government and even like on smaller scales in state and local governments, if they're not diverse, that they don't represent the people that they're representing, then we're seeing these, you know, that that's the decisions that we're getting, and that's the policies that we're getting from them.

Sami Sage: Yeah. I'm sorry if I'm not saying this totally clearly. This is the first time I'm actually articulating these thoughts so I'm sort of just, you know…I've, I've thought about this a lot in my own head, but I…

Jillian Curwin: Yeah.

Sami Sage: I don't know that I've ever spoken about it in this particular like, way. So yeah, I mean, I'm sorry if I'm not, you know, completely expressing it clearly, but I do think that it is really sort of, that is like, kind of the crux of it is this like existing hierarchy. I think you can see it with like, for example, why is there no mandatory maternity leave?

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Sami Sage: Why is that? Because men are the ones…

Jillian Curwin: Who don't need maternity leave.

Sami Sage: Exactly. I think that's kind of like, a really good concrete example of what I'm trying to say.

Jillian Curwin: Yeah. I think, I think you definitely were saying that, and it was coming across. And I think that, you know, and there's a lot of talk right now, which is one of the main issues that I really wanted to talk about with you is what's happening in Florida right now. Because I think we're seeing a…you know, white, straight man make these decisions that are affecting people that, you know, he doesn't have…communities that he's not a part of, but yet he's making these decisions. And, you know, it's not just, I think the focus of, you know, particularly with him wanting to get rid of DE&I initiatives, and I want you to kind of explain more exactly what he's intending to do and what he's already been doing. You know, it doesn't just affect… it's not just a race issue. It affects people of different sexualities, of different genders, of different abilities as well. And I think that that's not necessarily been talked about yet.

And so I first want to ask you to kind of explain, briefly, what Ron DeSantis is trying to do in Florida, before we delve into the other stuff.

Sami Sage: Ron DeSantis is really firing on all cylinders in Florida. He is, he is hitting every issue. And I don't want to say that these are cultural issues. These are constit-...issues of constitutional rights that he is hitting on.

Jillian Curwin: Yes.

Sami Sage: Number one, we have your 15-week abortion ban. Number two, we have extreme attacks on the LGBT community - obviously, you have the “Don’t Say Gay” law, a lot of the books that are being banned are being banned because of depictions of queer relationships or sexuality. You know, that's a whole issue. The…He's coming after the education system, and this has affected both the LGBT community and the black community. Number one, with the LGBT community, specifically, he's coming after…So, he's trying to basically, what you, what you mentioned, is public schools in Florida won't be allowed to have any sort of DEI statement at all. And there's one school in Florida. It's like a small liberal arts college. It's described as sort of like a haven for like, progressive thought, and the LGBT community. And it's a public Florida school. His goal is to turn this into like, a conservative school. And that is kind of…That is like, emblematic of what he's doing, I think, across the whole education system in Florida, and also with the books.

Then you have the, the…With the AP, the controversy with the AP African-American studies course, where now we're seeing that he and the College Board, that Florida's Department of Education and the College Board, had significant contact over the past year where Florida's Department of Education was actively trying to influence what was in this course, and actually tried to get certain things removed, like the entire concept of systemic marginalization. And, I mean, we could do a whole 5 minutes on like why that, him getting trying to get rid of that particular concept is especially harmful.

Jillian Curwin: Mmmhmm.

Sami Sage: We can come back to that maybe. And he…OK, sorry. So, you have that whole thing with the AP African-American studies course and the College Board. You see how like, nitty gritty he's getting about things.

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Sami Sage: He also is, when it comes to voting rights, they're trying to fund a police force, basically, that goes after people for election fraud. And basically what they've done is they've like, showed up at, I think, it's almost like 20 people, I think more than half of them were Black, their homes and arrested them at gunpoint. Because, essentially what it is, is I don't know if you remember, but a few years ago, I think 2018, Florida voted out of referendum, on their ballot, that people who have felonies should be able to vote.

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Sami Sage: Then Florida's legislature put another law on top of that, saying that if they want to vote, they have to pay fines. But there's no like, place where people know what they owe or like, that they owe even. So, they arrest…So when people, you know, who may owe a fine, register to vote, they go vote. So now Ron DeSantis is arresting these people who like, unwittingly voted. There's like not that many of them so it's not enough to actually move any election. But…So these are…I mean, he's also, he's creating sort of like a whole department to, to move migrants across the country, you know, that whole thing that happened at Martha's Vineyard. So, he is really, aggressively creating like a petri dish of mini-American authoritarianism. And, you can see the way that it affects all of…every group of, of people.

Jillian Curwin: Right. And it's scary, especially like, knowing that he's making a presidential run. It's very clear that's what he's trying to do. And if he's able to do it in Florida, then what's going to stop him from doing it, you know…if he gets elected?

Sami Sage: Right.

Jillian Curwin: Or what's going to stop then other states from seeing what he's doing and trying to follow in his footsteps in their own states?

Sami Sage: Well, the scariest thing about Ron DeSantis, I believe, is that he is very smart.

Jillian Curwin: Mmmhmm.

Sami Sage: Like, genuinely.

Jillian Curwin: Yes.

Sami Sage: He’s intellectually consistent. He knows the ins and outs of the military because he was in it.

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Sami Sage: And he really knows what he's doing. Like, Donald Trump wanted to achieve all these things, but he didn't understand how to actually do them and enact them. Ron DeSantis knows exactly how to enact them, and how to make them seem casual.

Jillian Curwin: Yes.

Sami Sage: And to not draw anyone's attention to it. Like Donald Trump, for example, it's such a…He did like, the Muslim ban like day one, like, we're banning Muslims. That made everybody go to the airport and protest.

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Sami Sage: Ron DeSantis is like, secretly changing the district that Disney is in because, in a special session, because he's mad that they don't support the “Don’t Say Gay” bill. The fact that he's going after one of the biggest, most popular American companies, most recognizable household names, that shows that he has no fear about saying to the business community, you're mine. And that's what a Ron DeSantis presidency would look like. So, let's see if they're like, tax cut, their potential tax cuts, will outweigh the fear of something like that happening.

Jillian Curwin: Right. And, and it's scary. It's scary to watch. And there’s talks on so many things that he's doing. And, what I'm not hearing discussed, and I'm curious, as someone who does cover the media, covers politics, covers pop culture on a daily basis like, kind of ask why do you think this is - is that we're not hearing how some of these issues, or some of these decisions, are affecting the disabled community?

You know, talking about the abortion ban and, you know, at 15 weeks, you know, for…As a little person, there is a fear if I have, if my husband is a little person and we have a baby, there's a 25% chance, just purely based on genetics, that our baby will have, it's called double-dominant syndrome, and the baby just, it will not survive. And…but you don't necessarily know that until you get to, I think, and I'm not a mother, I've never had to experience this yet. But I think it's around like 24 weeks. But you don't know.

Sami Sage: Wow.

Jillian Curwin: Yeah.

Sami Sage: That’s late.

Jillian Curwin: It's late. You don't know. Like, my parents, they didn’t know for me as a healthy dwarf child, they didn't know I was a dwarf until six weeks after I was born. So, detection is very…I mean, that was in the early nineties, so it's, detection’s very different. But with this like, you don't know, the child doesn't live. But if Florida's 15 weeks, you're putting undue harm on the mother and the child, knowing that the child isn't going to live, and that's just, you know, one small section of the disabled community, that decision.

And then the same thing with DE&I. And if he's trying to pull back these initiatives and not talk about it, you know, I feel like…I'm worried that that's a slippery slope to pulling back things that are protected, or should be protected under the ADA, such as making reasonable accommodations. Because, you know, in terms of education, disability is often left out. So, but it's more a slippery slope of actually getting those reasonable accommodations and making sure disabled students can go to class and, you know, teach whatever curriculum is being provided.

Sami Sage: Yeah. I mean, just to speak to my experience on this, on this subject. Well, sorry, I just want to go back a second.

Jillian Curwin: Yeah.

Sami Sage: Hold on. Sorry. Because there was something you said earlier about…Okay. All right. Sorry. Yeah. I mean, I think this is a totally, this is a, the, the way that anything affects the disabled community is sort of doubled-down like, on the, it's the negative effects on any community times ten. I, just for some context about my background, I grew up with my, I had a younger brother who was, who had autism. He’s no longer alive because of, I mean, I don't want to get into the whole story because it's just…

Jillian Curwin: Yeah.

Sami Sage: Not for now. But you know, but growing up he, he lived till he was 24. So, growing up basically like, I watched my mom have to argue for every single resource at school, every type of therapy, all the possible accommodations that he could have. Regardless of the laws, the actual amount of funding that goes towards disabled students is like a pittance. We went, I went to a really, really well funded, great public high school, and my mom still had to like, devote weeks to making sure that he would be able to like, have the proper help, that he had an after school activity, that it was…that he was able to actually get the things that he like, he was supposed to get.

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Sami Sage: And I mean, that's in sort of your best public, best example of a publicly funded education situation. That is like, not the norm. Everywhere else dis-, disability funding is just first to go. I mean, every single it's just…Medicaid is so….And because there are fewer, in theory, people who need it, there's less of an outcry. But, in reality like, these are the people who need it most and, but in reality, most people who have disabilities are getting is so small, and such a fraction of what they actually need.

Jillian Curwin: Yes.

Sami Sage: It's just, it goes back to like, this lack of a safety net that like, if you don't, you know, there's no guarantee that you'll be taken care of. It's very much just like, figure it out.

Jillian Curwin: Yeah. And it's get…And it's like, we're given so little. Like, there are people who won't get married out of fear of, like, losing their disability benefits. If you go on disability, you can't get a job. Essentially, you're saying, but you are still able to work but like, you just can't… Like, it's so limiting and people don't realize…

Sami Sage: You're allowed to be paid…There…You're allowed to pay people who have disabilities below minimum wage.

Jillian Curwin: Yes.

Sami Sage: It's actually crazy. Like, it's actually, I don't understand how that’s constitutional but somehow…

Jillian Curwin: I don't either. I need a constitutional scholar to come on explain this to me because I don't understand.

Sami Sage: Yeah.

Jillian Curwin: I truly do not understand. And, you know, like, and I think what people don't realize, and even Ron DeSantis doesn't realize, is that disability does not discriminate. He could wind up needing disability one day, like…

Sami Sage: Absolutely.

Jillian Curwin: And then what do you do? And then will you like…? And then, I want to know, like, will you then care? And I…

Sami Sage: Well, here’s the thing. It's, it's hard because there's this temptation to be like, well, it could happen to you, too.

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Sami Sage: You better care. But it's like, I wish that it didn't need to be like, a threat. You know?

Jillian Curwin: Right. It shouldn't have to be. And it's, it's just like, especially that they don't understand it. Like, this is the world's largest minority. Anyone can join at any time. I wouldn't wish it on anyone, as much as I'm a proud, disabled person. You know, I'm not going to wish disability on someone just so that way they understand what I go through, what someone else goes through, on a daily basis. But it's just like, it does though feel like those why like, what more do we, disabled people, have to do to get you to care? You know, and especially because you are making the decisions, and there is little to no disability representation in our government. There are some fantastic disabled representatives: Congresswoman Ayanna Pressley. Senator Tammy Duckworth. But, it's like, what more, though, do the people in power like, have to like, what more do we have to say to get them to care?

Sami Sage: I'll be honest, I think that it's, it really is about proximity. It doesn't have to, like happen to you. But I can't say, I can't know. I can't know how I would be without growing up with my brother…

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Sami Sage: And those experiences that I saw up close that were just really like…I, I can't remember a time when I didn't know them, so they were so formative. So I can't really imagine what I would feel, or how much I would be in touch with it if I didn't come from where, from my own experience. So, I mean, just do people need to be proximal to it? Like, it shouldn't be that way.

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Sami Sage: But I do think that ultimately…I mean, I think with anything, exposure is really what matters. Exposure and then people, some people who are just like, you know, help move the goalpost forward, you know, and those individuals are like, I think the work is or the, the, the work…It's effective to try to, you know, make people more conscious so that more people are fighting for that.

Jillian Curwin: Mmmhmm.

Sami Sage: One of the, one of the real issues, I think, and this kind of just talked, just to talk about, like, civic engagement generally.

Jillian Curwin: Yeah.

Sami Sage: Part of the problem, I think, with where we are as a society in general is that I think that people drop in and out of politics, if at all. And they don't see being a citizen who has a right to vote as part of their identity. They don't see it as, as…and they can take a lot of forms. And I think that's what people are confused about.

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Sami Sage: Like not part…There are so many issues to tackle, and not everyone needs, no, not everyone can or should tackle every single issue. But everyone should, in theory, as like an engaged citizen, I think have something that they're passionate, you know, that they, that they are engaged on.

Jillian Curwin: Mmmhmm.

Sami Sage: And I think when people start to see themselves as, like, a member of this group, that…

Jillian Curwin: Yeah.

Sami Sage: We all need to be, you know, have a part of, that's ultimately the way to get more done. Is that more people just need to feel a responsibility towards one thing and, you know, because as it is now, it's like, a very small, concentrated number of people, generally speaking, about every issue.

Jillian Curwin: Yes.

Sami Sage: And then it's like, why don't you cover this issue? But the problem is not that those people aren't trying, that activists aren't trying hard enough. The problem is that there aren't enough people doing small things to be active regularly.

Jillian Curwin: I agree. And yeah. And I think like, it shows in just like the stories that are covered and not. We're seeing, you know, I think we are seeing more diverse storytelling in our media landscape, but I think there's still more issues that can be talked about, or like, more than just…I think it also comes to like what do people, you know, people need to just, need to listen. I think that's like, people just need to want to listen, and to hear these different stories, even if they can't relate, even if they feel that they can't understand, just to give them the space to have their voices be heard. You know, I think it lends, it's going to lend to hearing more of these stories, and eventually, hopefully filter up through the political systems that way the people, the decision makers are hearing these stories and realize that they can't be ignored. I think if we're, if we are ignoring them, then the leaders we actually elect are going be like, well, my electorate isn't going to listen to them, so why should I?

Sami Sage: Right. I mean, I think people have to, I think that people start to listen once a certain issue reaches a critical mass. And, you know, I think we had feminism, there's, you know, gay rights movement. Now, I think BLM is kind of the movement of this decade.

Jillian Curwin: Yeah.

Sami Sage: My assumption is that there has to at some point be a disability rights movement that reaches a critical mass at some point. And I think that that probably is going to come from Gen Z, if I had to guess, because it's not just about physical disabilities, which I do think is sort of how, is the old school way that people view disability.

Jillian Curwin: Yes.

Sami Sage: I think the idea of invisible disability was not something that anyone was talking about. So I think with like, this younger generation that has proximity, not just to the obvious physical disabilities that everyone can see, that, well, you could go in a handicapped spot. You know, I think that's really how…I really do believe that is how a lot of older people think about accommodations. It's like, your ramp and your handicapped spot. Not that this is so much of a deeper…There's so much more complexity to it.

Jillian Curwin: Yes.

Sami Sage: And the truth is that people who have disabilities, if they're going to, if you're going to make this argument like, around productivity, there is a lot…People who have disabilities are not just like, not worth accommodating.

Jillian Curwin: No.

Sami Sage: And I think that that is sort of the old school way of looking at it because it seems so like, cut and dry to them. But I think with Gen Z, people see that there's like, so much more nuance to it.

Jillian Curwin: Yes.

Sami Sage: There's so much more, there's so much more mental health diagnosis, Autism diagnosis. And I just think that with the proximity, people will see that it's, is like something that we need to get on right away.

Jillian Curwin: I agree. And it's interesting that you talk about like, there needing to be a disability rights movement because there has been one, it's just not talked about. You know, there were the sit-ins in the seventies, which I didn't learn about until watching Crip Camp, which came out right before COVID really hit. And like, learning that, you know, it was the largest sit-in protests in a federal like, like federal government building. I'm, I think I'm misconstruing that a little bit, but it was like of the largest protests. Nobody talked about it. The Black Panthers were allies in it. They were supporting the, the activists in the buildings. You know, there had…Then there's a Disability Civil Rights Movement in the nineties that got, that led to the ADA being passed. But that was never in any textbook I was given as a student. Up and through college that was never talked about. So, and I think, you know, I do, I agree that Gen Z and, you know, even the older millennials like, I think it's kind of up to us to really if, you know, kind of get us, get other people talking about it and we have the power to do it. We've seen how powerful Gen Z was in this midterm election. So like, if they come together and start raising awareness, it can make a difference. Like, I, I agree with you on that.

Sami Sage: Yeah, I definitely don't mean to imply that there was never, you know…[a disability rights movement]

Jillian Curwin: No.

Sami Sage: A new disability rights movement. What I mean is like, where it reaches that visibility.

Jillian Curwin: Yes.

Sami Sage: Where it is, where it becomes like, people are conscious of it. You know, now I think when people are making business decisions, they are thinking about it through the factor, through the filter of diversity. They're thinking about their blindspots like, in that ar[ea], in that space. And I think that that needs to be something that people are thinking about more things through that lens.

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Sami Sage: This just reminded me of something I need to talk to someone about, actually. But to that, just to that point, yeah, I think that it is…I don't know why those things, you know, I didn't learn about the ADA either until I was studying literally discrimination law in college.

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Sami Sage: And that's also like, from a business standpoint. So, I don't know. I think, yeah, I think there's maybe for, maybe part of like, the workers rights movement, you know, as like labor unions are becoming more prominent. I mean, I think that that is probably like, a really effective, you know, way in. But, you know, unions are, they have their own, their, their own drama.

Jillian Curwin: Yes, they do. But it's interesting. And you talk about like, the diversity and like, DE&I initiatives, which Ron DeSantis is trying to pull back, and you talk about these blind spots and it's often, at least a disabled person, disability is still in that blind spot. I think we've made such great strides, and it's because of movements like BLM and the feminist movement, that we're seeing that those issues are kind of being tackled in the DE&I spaces, and being addressed in work spaces. But yet disability, it feels like it's not getting the same attention yet. And…

Sami Sage: Yeah.

Jillian Curwin: It’s interesting too. Like it's interesting to try to understand why, because we're aware of it, but yet it's still not, it's still in that blind spot.

Sami Sage: My feeling is that it's because people look at it as like individual. They don't look at it…I think what people see is like, okay, when there's something, someone to be accommodated, we will definitely do that. And there, and I completely believe that people are 100% planning to do that. Like, I don't think, I think for the most part…

Jillian Curwin: Yeah.

Sami Sage: people aren’t trying to like, get out of making accommodations that need to be made or that will help, will help them. But I think that it's looked at as so individual. It's like if you need help, we’ll help you.

Jillian Curwin: Yes.

Sami Sage: Rather than creating a…fewer barriers to someone who needs an accommodation and just sort of, or, or even just like, projecting a willingness or the fact that it's a priority.

Jillian Curwin: Right. I agree. And I think, you know, I'm in a workplace now where like, I've been told that I'm the first little person, and currently only. But like they…and it's like part of me is like listening to that's like, okay, great. But, yay. But now it's like, well, how, what do we do so that other people know that this is a space where a little person knows that they can work, and they can thrive, and they can, they can be you know…They've met my accommodations. They've gone above and beyond meeting my accommodations from what I've asked for. And just, and seeing other disabled people in those spaces, because it's the space where I grew up seeing my parents in and I didn't think I could be in there because I didn't see people like me there, and not just as a little person, just as another disabled person. So I think seeing that is so important, which is, you know…When hear that he wants to pull DE&I, DE&I back, it's scary. It's just, it's what, what are we regressing to? And I guess it's kind of like a good question. Like where, if he's successful, where does that go?

Sami Sage: It goes to total marginalization. I mean my feeling is that, with him, he's not even saying, oh, we won't center this, but we're okay with it. He's saying, no, we won't have this.

Jillian Curwin: Yeah.

Sami Sage: And what this is, is about sort of calling off groups that are not rich, white men. So that they can be controlled. What you were saying about, you know, potentially when you would, you know, need to have an abortion based on like, a medical need for example, the point is that these regulate, these laws, these abortion bans are not about life. They're not about making sure that there are more healthy babies born. They're about controlling women.

Jillian Curwin: Yes.

Sami Sage: They're about controlling people, and exerting the control is the point. Not like, to make sure that people are healthy and anything, you know, successful, and happy. It's all just about where can I put the most restrictions so as to hurt people.

Jillian Curwin: Mhm. Exactly.

And so then my question to you, as someone who covers media, covers politics, is very active and engaged in these spaces, if someone whose listening to this and is empowered and wants to do something but doesn't know what to do, where can they start?

Sami Sage: Here's…Okay. I hate giving like, across the board advice, because I feel like people like to consume things so differently.

Jillian Curwin: Yeah.

Sami Sage: And I think, I think one of the most helpful things in determining how like, you can be more of an engaged citizen on anything, it doesn't have to be everything, can literally be just one thing, is figuring out, or just identifying how you like to consume information, what makes you feel moved, what makes you feel motivated, what do you like to do when you, you know…Do you like to write? Do you like to speak to people? Do you like to go out and do activities? Like, what is it? And, so like, let's say you want to learn more but, and you love to read like, maybe read a book, it can be fiction, nonfiction, about something in this space. Maybe you like to watch movies like, watch a movie, watch a documentary. Like there's so…I think that if you're starting to learn something, there, start with like, the most enjoyable way of learning it. And then maybe you're like, oh, I really want to like, look that up on Wikipedia and you find yourself somewhere else.

And let's say you just don't, and let's say you find yourself not pulled towards one part of this conversation, but you find yourself really interested in another. That's okay too. It's not like you have to be, you know, solely focused on something that, you know, you heard on the Internet or like you heard us say.

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Sami Sage: It's really about kind of like, finding your passion in the way you want to help people and, yeah, and then kind of leaning into that.

Jillian Curwin: There you go.

I do want to pivot a little bit to talk about something, because I know in part of your coverage at Betches you talk about Bravo, which is one of my favorite things in the entire world. It's really, it's a guilty pleasure, but it's really not, for me. And just kind of like, get your thoughts, on like, Bravo…And I've had this conversation with someone before on the podcast. I'm just curious to know, like, your thoughts and like, what you think [unintelligble] happening, and this was around when they announced like, RHONY and the new season RHONY Legacy and kind of like, what they were doing and they say they're going in a more diverse direction. And, you know, we don't see disability representation a lot on Bravo. And I think that's, you know, Bravo, quote unquote, has real people on it, in theory. Some of their shows less than others. But like, what do you think it would mean, you know, obviously we know like RHONY legacy is supposed to look like, like, like seeing a div-, a disabled housewife, and we've had a couple, they weren't the best examples.

Sami Sage: I mean is anyone on Housewives like the best example of anything?

Jillian Curwin: True. Very true. that's.

Sami Sage: That’s the thing. Yeah.

Jillian Curwin: But like, so I’m just curious like, you know, we, we’ve see them talk about like, diversity efforts on Bravo and just like, where do you think, you know, in these pop culture…like where…? I'm trying to figure out how to phrase this question. I had, I had a better way to ask this, I think, in my head. So yeah like, like in general, in pop culture, particularly with Bravo like, why aren't we, you know…And that's something that's more fun and less, you know, does…what they do does not impact our lives on a daily basis, but still seeing that representation would be important. Like, why do you think we're not there yet in terms of disability representation with a network like Bravo?

Sami Sage: You know, I'm not, I'm not there, so I'm not sure. I'm not sure how, how much like, focus they're putting towards it. From my perception, it does not seem like they're not trying to have more representation. I do feel that Bravo has like, let’s say we had to rank all of the, you know, various channels of content out there, I would say Bravo is like, not the worst when it comes to showing representation. Obviously, they have a lot of, a lot of shortcomings and there are big mistakes for sure, on all different metrics. And we're dealing with people who are going on reality TV for money to like, exploit their own lives. So we are in that space like, let's be real.

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Sami Sage: So I don't know if it's like, lack of trying. Sometimes I just wonder like, statistically, where there's not that many people who get on shows, there's not that many people who are going to like test, who, who are going to like, test well, who are going to, a lot of shows don't even happen. And my assumption is not that they like, are trying to like, shut out keeping disability visible at all. My sent-, I mean, they had Aviva on like a decade ago. You know…

Jillian Curwin: And her leg is still iconic. We still remember that moment.

Sami Sage: Right. I don't think they're closed to it. I just think that the, for the right things to come together to, for there to actually be more visibility, they have to…I just, it's not as much in their control, I think, in reality as like we would like to think. But I do think that it's not just Bravo because Bravo has, you know, an opportunity, and I'm sure they would take it again if they had it. I'm sure they would bring Aviva back, even, you know. Whatever it is like, I don't think that they're keeping anyone off because of like, a disability, or because they're trying to discriminate, to my, to my knowledge, I might be being generous with them. To me, the question would be more as like what is the perception of that person once they're on? And how is their, is their disability talked about? And what is shown? That, to me, would be more telling.

Jillian Curwin: Right. And I think, and I agree, and I think, you know, Aviva was not a bad disabled person. She just maybe wasn't the best housewife. And I think a show like Housewives, they are looking for a very specific type of individual in the sense of where they come from moneywise and where they come from family wise. But I think, I started thinking about this because the only other time I saw disability on TV was in the more educational reality shows like Little People, Big World, The Little Couple, Seven Little Johnstons, which are all great representations of reality, of…not reality, of disability in like, kind of a real reality setting. But then they had shows like The Little Women, which I was not a fan of. I didn't like how it was portraying little…women of short stature. And I think it kind of played into what society expected us to be. And, you know, like with Bravo, like, there's not trying to, you're not watching Bravo to learn something the way you are from like the Seven Little Johnstons and Little People Big World, and so wanting to see disability representation, and it was like, kind of coming from when they were announced that they were going in a more diverse direction with RHONY, you know, like seeing like…Well, then there's shows like Summer House where, or Vanderpump Rules where it's just friends, or coworkers. And so like, that's a place where like, and they all bring each other on like, they bring people in their circle on. So that's where I think like, okay, if we're going to do it, why like…Have there been efforts, and I know the process is not transparent, but like, what would it mean to see a disabled person of any disability at the summer house, you know, on the weekends? Like just seeing them, like just seeing them go to summer in the Hamptons because we don't see it.

Sami Sage: Yeah, I mean, I don't think that they would be closed to it. I know…Well, from what I understand, they've had a lot of trouble casting Summer House.

Jillian Curwin: Yeah.

Sami Sage: My question is like, I don't know who's auditioned for them.

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Sami Sage: You know that, that's my other question. Like, how do we know who they're selecting or not selecting? How do they, we even know who is an option? I mean, what you were saying about like, the educational content, like what about like Game of Thrones where like, Peter Dinklage is like the best character. I mean, he's my favorite character on that show.

Jillian Curwin: Same.

Sami Sage: What about, I mean, maybe even another question because it's not just reality TV. It's also movie, you know, scripted shows and scripted, scripted movies. So it's like, maybe, I think even probably before like, when you're talking about casting, getting people into like those early roles, into supporting roles so that they can like, build a fan base and then they're written into a show as like a main character, or a part of an ensemble cast. To me, I'm like, okay, why didn't something like Glass Onion have like, Peter Dinklage as a star? So like you have a star, and you have a big ensemble cast of stars, that's to me like a place where there's an option for visibility, but not.

Jillian Curwin: Right. And I think, and I agree with you. 100% agree with you. And, you know, seeing, when they do create disabled characters, them actually casting disabled actors in those roles.

Sami Sage: Right. Right.

Jillian Curwin: And also not putting, or and also, though, on the same side…And I took like an interesting position on this recently with the Wicked movie someone was saying, because they didn't cast a little person to play one of the Munchkins, and I said, I’m like actually I agree with this decision. Because, you know, technically Munchkins are really not little people. That was just a decision made in the thirties. And then that's kind of what society has believed a Munchkin to be. But like, looking into and delving in deeper like, the main characters are technically Munchkins in that they're from Munchkin Land. That's what makes them a munchkin.

Sami Sage: Right.

Jillian Curwin: So casting, you know, not casting a little person in that role, now I'm like, good. Like, that was like, a good thing. But then like, on the flip side, seeing Peter Dinklage in a role in the movie like Glass Onion or seeing other little people, not just Peter Dinklage, because I think he's definitely put himself above.

Sami Sage: The main.

Jillian Curwin: Yeah, he's the main. He's not the only. And I think so many there's...

Sami Sage: It's not all just, it's any disability. I think it's like anything…

Jillian Curwin: Yes.

Sami Sage: Where somebody just doesn't, just their, their disability is apparent, whether they're in a wheelchair, whatever it is, it can be multiple things. So, yeah.

Jillian Curwin: Yeah. We just need to see it more authentically in both our scripted content and our non-scripted content, and like seeing this and like, just seeing it…without having it to be like the only time we get to see disability representation is if they're teaching us something, is just to see real disability representation. Just seeing that. Giving these people a platform will lead into them being heard on spaces that aren't just like, on our film and TV screen. So let's get those voices being heard and get people, like our elected leaders, like Ron DeSantis, like, you know, people on both sides running for office, you know, get them talking about it because, you know, every issue in the midterms was a disability rights issue. And I don't think that was necessarily talked about from that lens in the media. And I think going ahead, especially knowing what DeSantis is doing, it needs to be included in these conversations in the media, on all sides and all levels.

Sami Sage: Okay. So I have a question for you.

Jillian Curwin: Yes.

Sami Sage: How do you feel when you…How do you feel about incorporating the mental health conversation into the disability conversation, more broadly speaking? So like, when someone like Naomi Osaka says, like, I'm going to drop out because I don't, you know, for like, mental…protection of her own mental health. How do you feel that that I guess goes with the question over disability more broadly? Like, do you want that to be part of a disability conversation? Or do you feel that that is sort of its own separate conversation?

Jillian Curwin: Ooo, yes and no. I think it's…should be included. It's just hard because…The only reason why I'm hesitant as a fully yes is just because, like, if I say it, then it kind of feeds into what society already thinks of me as being disabled. Like if I was just to say, like, I can't I'm too tired or like, I'm mentally…like, kind of doing that, like I'm worried that it'll perpetuate that I can't do something. Because I'm already, you've seen my body, you know. Being disabled means I can't, there's some things I cannot do. So, I feel like…

Sami Sage: Well, that's just with her as an example.

Jillian Curwin: Right. But like, even like with, like Simone Biles, where everyone was giving her so much negativity for her saying my body like, I mentally cannot do this. And she's one of the best athletes in the world. And, you know, the amount of like, I think I, I think it needs to be included. I think it needs to be talked about. And I fully supported them. And when those conversations do happen, I think, for me, and I've been open about talking about my struggles and my mental health, I think though in the larger conversation I just worry with, because of the negative stereotypes about what being disabled means, how if we…bring in mental health into it, if it's not done correctly, it'll almost play into the other side's argument, if that makes sense.

Sami Sage: Right. Like they don't always go hand in hand.

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Sami Sage: Or in the way that you would assume. But I guess I feel that the beneficial part of the mental health conversation to the overall disability conversation is more the concept of like, an invisible…

Jillian Curwin: Yes.

Sami Sage: Disability. That it's not always on the surface. And I think that when there's more acceptance for that as a concept, and it should, in theory, I mean, there's always just going to be that like asshole contingent of society.

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Sami Sage: But it should, in theory, make people more sensitive and understanding to the various ways in which people can be hindered by, in whatever it is they're doing.

Jillian Curwin: And that I agree with. And I think, you know, it's interesting us talking about this with someone, and this will kind of play into something that we said we would want to talk about right before we hit record, if we could find a way to get there, and I think this actually would work, is there are some invisible disabilities…I think society does understand in the sense of being blind or being deaf like, we don't see those disabilities necessarily. We see indicators of it, if someone has a guide dog or a walking stick or someone is clearly using sign language or has a cochlear implant, but we don't see the disability itself. We don't see, so like, but we kind of like, we as a society understand what that, that is a disability. We understand what they are. Whereas, you know, sometimes as a little person, I feel like society still doesn't know if I'm disabled or not.

But yeah, you know, with the Super Bowl, we're recording this the Monday after the Super Bowl, they had, you know, they showcased this is the person signing, doing the ASL for this, the, for the Anthem, and then they take them off the screen, so you can't see them. And it's like, so we're, we get, we, but we understand, like, that's not right. And we understand what it means like, why this person is there, what the job is they're doing. But yet we're still going to make the national anthem inaccessible.

Sami Sage: Right. It's like, who are they signing for? Just the people physically in the stadium?

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Sami Sage: Yeah. I mean, that would, it would make sense for them to just do like a little picture-in-picture thing. It just seems so easy. But you know, they have to put, they have to put their, their sponsorship logo. So...

Jillian Curwin: Right. Apparently, I saw like, if you had a subscription link, then you could actually see the picture-in-picture, which I think is how everyone could see…Did you see Beyoncé’s…? Rihanna, not Beyoncé. Rihanna's ASL interpreter?

Sami Sage: Yes. Well, I saw videos of it because I didn't see it on the screen.

Jillian Curwin: RIght I didn’t see it as it was happening. I saw the videos.

Sami Sage: She was really, really great.

Jillian Curwin: She was amazing. I mean, Rihanna was absolutely amazing.

Sami Sage: Rihanna was awesome. Yeah.

Jillian Curwin: It was. She was amazing. But then watching her interpreter, was like, it was like, why couldn't we see that? At least in a picture-in-a-picture? Like, see that.

Sami Sage: Yeah.

Jillian Curwin: So those who need the interpreter, and those who are deaf or hard of hearing, could truly enjoy Rihanna's amazing performance.

Sami Sage: Exactly. Yeah, I think we definitely have a long ways to go. And it's about making, you know, just really making the effort and making steps towards it.

Jillian Curwin: Right. I agree.

Um, Sami, who do you look up to?

Sami Sage: Oh my god. Oh, that's hard. Oh, god. Who do I look up to? So many people. I mean, I, I feel like I really admire a lot of people. It's so hard to give one answer. I'm just going to go and say my mom.

Jillian Curwin: Okay.

Sami Sage: She has put up with so many tragic things in her life, and gotten through them, and is just a very lovely, loving person. Despite it all.

Jillian Curwin: I listened to your mom when she was guests episodes on DST, and those are some of my favorite episodes to like, listen back to. Your mom just seems like the coolest person ever.

Sami Sage: Thank you. Yeah, she's very, she's awesome. Maybe I'll have her back on for another one soon.

Jillian Curwin: Yes, I'm a fan. You can tell I'm a fan.

Sami Sage: Thank you. I will.

Jillian Curwin: Are there any questions I have not asked that you would like to answer?

Sami Sage: Oh, no, I don't know. I don't think so. That’s probably a bad answer but I don’t.

Jillian Curwin: That’s totally a good answer.

Sami Sage: Yeah. Yeah. Okay, good.

Jillian Curwin: Sami, thank you so much for coming on. Where can people follow you? Where can they listen to the Morning Announcements? Listen to the Sup? Kind of, this is your space to plug yourself.

Sami Sage: Thank you. You can follow me @sami on Instagram, @samisagesays on Tik Tok and Twitter. I have the Morning Announcements every single day on Apple, Spotify. I also have a premium deep dive subscription episodes, that I do twice a month where, it's called Extra Extra. Basically, I like, go really, really deep into issues. One of the, one of them actually was Ron DeSantis and everything he is doing in Florida, and why he is potentially actually worse than Trump. I went into his whole background and you see he really is about these things that he's doing. He really believes them deep in his soul. Yeah. The Betches Sup podcast, Betches generally, and yeah. That's, that's where you can find me. Lots of places.

Jillian Curwin: Go follow Sami. I’ll have links to all that in the show notes. Listen to the Morning Announcements. It's truly one of my favorite ways to start the day with a little bit, get the news, get a little bit of snark. It's great. It's fabulous. I love it.

Sami Sage: Thank you.

Jillian Curwin: So I will have links to follow in the show notes as well as on the transcription page as well. So, go do that.

How… I like to end ev-, every episode is kind of like an icebreaker at the end, because I think it's more fun that way. So I just have five categories, I’m going to switch them up a little bit for you, but I just want to hear your favorite in each one starting with favorite book

Sami Sage: Ooh. The Power is one of my favorite books. I think I'm just gonna have to go with that for now, because it was the first one that came to my mind. But I do have others. But let's go with that for now.

Jillian Curwin: Perfect. Favorite TV show.

Sami Sage: Hmm. I want to say The White Lotus or Sopranos. The White Lotus though. The White Lotus is actually now, I think, favorite show.

Jillian Curwin: I'm so ready for season three already. I'm ready for it.

Sami Sage: Haven't even filmed yet, depressingly.

Jillian Curwin: I know. I'm going to add on one to that just because, again, we love Bravo here. Favorite Housewives franchise.

Sami Sage: Mmm. It changes based on like, how good it is. I think my favorite one is…Mmm. My favorites are Beverly Hills or New York, but the best one is Potomac.

Jillian Curwin: I agree that the Potomac is the…

Sami Sage: Like Beverly Hills used to be my favorite. Then it was New York, and now it's really Potomac.

Jillian Curwin: So I think, yeah. I think New York is like the best, like, it's my favorite like older seasons, like original, like OG like, that's like my favorite. I think now though Potomac is reigning queen for me. Yeah.

Sami Sage: Yeah. Agreed.

Jillian Curwin: Favorite drink.

Sami Sage: Hmm. Iced coffee, probably. Or is this an alcohol drink?

Jillian Curwin: However you choose to interpret that question.

Sami Sage: I’ll just go with iced coffee because it was my first thought.

Jillian Curwin: Perfect. Um, favorite piece of advice you've ever given.

Sami Sage: I think the best advice I can offer is to go easy on yourself. And I don't mean, like, lower your standards for existence like, long term in general. I think that the more layers of guilt and self-criticism you can remove from your headspace, the more room you give yourself to grow. So just like, generally being gentler with yourself, paying attention to the things you say to yourself, and how hard you are on yourself, even for things that like, you're actually doing them wrong. Like you can be wrong and also just not be that hard on yourself and like, it probably isn't going to…Being hard on yourself has never made me get better at something, is what I've noticed. I've only ever really gotten better at something by being gentle. So that's kind of, I guess that's my advice.

Jillian Curwin: I love that. Favorite piece of advice you've ever received.

Sami Sage: Received? Hmm. Okay. Got it. This is actually from my mother. It is, you catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar, which is basically just, you can, you can be more productive and get more done when you're nice and approach people kindly and gently, rather than not nicely.

Jillian Curwin: Love that. Last one. This is kind of more I just, I want to know, as someone who has interviewed people in pop culture, in media, in the health and wellness space, do you have a memorable interview? Memorable guest?

Sami Sage: I have a lot. Let me think which one. There have been so many good ones. I mean, the most famous was probably like, Mindy Kaling. Barbara Corcoran was very memorable. She was like, you guys should take a vacation once every three weeks. Like, okay, Barbara, I love Stephanie Ruhle. I watch her show every night, and I went on it last week and I was just like my favorite. Loved her. Tina Brown. Katie Couric. Tina Brown told me I was a good interviewer. I lived off that compliment, I'm still living off it. Clearly. I'm trying to think who else was real…I mean, there were so many fun ones. Chasten Buttigieg was a lovely man. I'll try to think of more. [unintelligible]

Jillian Curwin: That's an amazing list right there. That was best note to end on.

Sami, thank you so much again for coming on. Please come back. I’d love to talk politics, media, pop culture, Bravo with you all the time. So you're welcome back.

Sami Sage: Thank you so much. This was really fun. I really appreciate it.

Jillian Curwin: Thank you.

The final, final, final thing I just have to ask is for you to remind my listeners, in your most badass, most fierce voice, possible that hey is just a number, not a limit.

Sami Sage: Height is just a number, not a limit.

Jillian Curwin: Always Looking Up is hosted by Jillian Curwin and edited and produced by Ben Curwin. Please make sure to rate, review, and subscribe and follow on Spotify so that you never miss an episode. Follow me on Instagram, @jill_ilana and the podcast @alwayslookingup.podcast for updates and check out my blog JillianIlana.com for more content about what it is like to be a little person in an average sized world.

Thanks for listening. See you next week.