Jillian IlanaMarch 06, 2023Comment

Amanda Duberman On Telling Disabled Stories From An Activism Lens

Jillian IlanaMarch 06, 2023Comment

Image Description: A head shot of Amanda Duberman, a woman with blonde hair, wearing glasses and a black long-sleeved shirt and gold necklace in front of a pink backdrop, looking powerfully to camera. Overlaid is the text “Always Looking Up. Episode 89 -> Amanda Duberman, Telling Disabled Stories From An Activism Lens”

Jillian Curwin: Hi, everyone. Welcome to Always Looking Up, the podcast where no one is overlooked, and height is only a number, never a limit, hosted by me, Jillian Curwin. Each week I'll be having a conversation about what it is like to live in a world that is not necessarily designed for you.

In this week's episode, I sat down with Amanda Duberman. Amanda is the senior director of news and activism at Betches Media, and is the editorial director of the Betches Sup, the News and Politics brand of Betches. We discussed why certain disabled stories will go viral on social media, and yet be ignored by traditional news outlets, the fact that the disabled community is often either dehumanized or infantilized by the media, what it means to approach the news from an activism lens, and highlight some recent disability stories that you may not have heard your favorite news anchor cover. Let's get into it.

Hi, Amanda.

Amanda Duberman: Hi, Jillian.

Jillian Curwin: How are you?

Amanda Duberman: I'm doing well. I'm so excited to get a chance to chat with you.

Jillian Curwin: I am so excited to be talking with you as well, to be having you on the podcast. This has been quite a long time coming. I've been wanting to have you on, so getting able to be able to talk to you now is so exciting.

Amanda Duberman: Awesome.

Jillian Curwin: To start, why don't you tell my listeners who may not know who you are a little bit about yourself.

Amanda Duberman: Yeah. So my name's Amanda Duberman and right now I'm the senior director for news and activism at Betches. But my main responsibility is to kind of tend to Betches Sup, which is like our news and politics platform that's geared towards like, millennial women, Gen Z women, updates on the news and politics from a pretty pointed point of view. And we have a podcast, a newsletter, we do some videos. Sort of all over the place just like you are.

Jillian Curwin: Yeah. So we're going to be getting in it. This is kind of like a continuation... If you guys listened to my episode with Sami, which came out, I believe as of recording this two weeks ago, this is very much a continuation of that. But we're going to kind of delve into some other topics that we didn't get a chance to talk to, as well as kind of be examining how the media covers these stories and where it's lacking and things like that. But before we delve into that more, I want to ask you, how do you define being an ally or allyship?

Amanda Duberman: I think for me in terms of like, how it's been easiest to apply, or most effective to apply, in my life and work is just like, listening and knowing when it's your turn to talk. Yeah, just listening is really the first thing that comes to mind. And being open and not being defensive and just making space for, you know, realizing that you don't know everything and you have to listen. Like you are, everybody has a very narrow perspective, even if it's a diverse one. So yeah, to me, allyship over time for me has really come to me and just like, listen, listen.

Jillian Curwin: Yes, I agree. Like, like you said, like, even if you have a diverse perspective, it is still narrow because I think that's not something we really think about. But I think it's so true. And I'm curious, like, where did you like, what are your interest, in wanting to be talking about politics, talking about the media, like how did you get to where you are?

Amanda Duberman: I'm not sure. I think it was honestly sort of like, how anyone gets to like, the job they have where it's like, whatever your first job was, you just sort of like end up in that, in that line of work. But yeah, I always liked the intersection of writing and, for me, I was in college during the 2008 election. I think we're like, kind of similar ages. I think you're a couple of years younger than me, but…So that was when, you know, like, it really kind of activated in me. That was between Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton. So it was a really exciting time. I think it was like a really unique time to be a young person, a young white woman, and see yourself kind of represented, and to see space for, you know, not as much scarcity. And to see space for like, for the first time, not just like a white man, but a, you know, you had a Black man running, you had a white woman who were the top contenders. So I think that sort of like, locked in like, a caring for me where I was like, always kind of tuned in and going to care. And yeah, I’ve just continued to like pursue, pursue that line.

Jillian Curwin: And then in your role at Betches now, with doing the Sup, with running that vertical like, what has like…How do you approach covering these stories both on the podcast as well as like, in the content that you create?

Amanda Duberman: Yeah, I think one thing that’s sort of like, unique with how we approach it is that like, we're a really small team. It's actually just sort of like, in terms of the people running kind of coverage on the account, it's me and we have a content manager named Bridget, and then obviously the broader team is Sami, who's doing Morning Announcements every day. But, you know, we're not like a full newsroom who can necessarily cover every single story. So I spend a lot of time thinking about like, what we're not covering. And for me, I really want to cover certain issues, especially when they relate to identities, with a lot of care and attention. So sometimes it's like, if we're having a really quick day and I feel like I can't necessarily, I would rather sort of like, point our audience elsewhere than try to kind of like, force my perspective onto it. And yeah, that's definitely a learning experience. And sometimes you realize, you know what, it would have been best to kind of like pause and make sure this got coverage in any way. And sometimes, you know, you, you see a lot of people race to cover something wrong and you're glad that you kind of like, sat back. So the privilege that we have at Sup, because we're not a CNN, we're not a New York Times, is that we can kind of be patient. We can let the, we can use our platform to kind of elevate the voices that are the experts. Yeah.

Jillian Curwin: And one thing I love about that is that you talk about stories that don't often get covered by the mainstream media news outlets. And I'm curious to get your understanding as to why, in regards to disability and, you know, like the fact that in October we did that collaboration together for Dwarfism Awareness Month and no other news outlets, main[stream] or like, more small, like more social media based, were really doing it. And again, like you said, like, you were getting these, you want to get these perspectives and also have like, the people in these communities be telling these stories and like, I was just very like…The, and the care that like we went, that came into like preparing that, like I knew like going into it that it was going to be such a positive experience. I didn't necessarily prepare myself for how positive it was going to be, working with you and working with the team. And so I'm wondering, like I guess, okay, I’m gonna ask this kind of like why aren't, you know, even when we see some stories like that are trending on social media, why aren't they getting the same news coverage? Like, why are these viral stories not going, not transferring? Like…

Amanda Duberman: Yeah.

Jillian Curwin: Not getting that same attention.

Amanda Duberman: I mean, I think it's like…I'm sure you talk about this all the time. I mean, I think that one thing is that, I think that sometimes bigger news outlets like, we're coming at things from a point of activism already, and we don't really hide that. Whereas like some news outlets, I think that they, they don't see these stories and I don't think they think to themselves like, oh, that's an activism story. I just think that sometimes they don't necessarily feel like a burden to kind of say like, this is, this is a problem. And they sort of trust that like, the activist space will kind of take care of it. But some of the images that you see, you know, like these are stories that throughout history, like, you know, outlets have regretted not paying attention to. And then I think also, like the lack of I mean, like, it's like, we had a great time working on that video together and we have an awesome team. But the reason that we knew to do that was because you told us, and I have you as somebody who, for free like, is, you know, will flag things to me and let me know, because that's a burden that you take on. But I don't think that everybody has that. And I think, also I wonder, you know, a story that we're probably going to talk about today is that non-disabled people who dominate the media, I think, sometimes they feel some type of way about it. They don't know how to cover it without, without…like they may feel like they're victimizing the subject when really it's the dehumanization that needs to be highlighted. So I think it's just like, a lack of, it's, it's just a lack of like, good training. Like, I feel like more news outlets need to sort of have like the, the eye to spot a story that's like a human rights story, not necessarily sort of like an activism story. What do you think it is?

Jillian Curwin: I think it's definitely all that you said. And I think there's also just a sense that we live in a very ableist society that has created a very ableist environment. And we see that on both sides of the political aisle when disability does get discussed, both sides are very, are ableist. They're both guilty of it. And I think, again, like they don't, they don't know how to talk about it. And so they don't want to talk about it. And there's this lack of understanding that all of these issues that were on the ballot in, during the midterms, that are going to be on the ballot in 2024, are disability issues, even if they're not necessarily inherently disabled or like, they’re not like labeled disabled, it affects the disabled community. And I think it, maybe it…I don't know, it, it just doesn't get the headlines or, you know, like they just don't want to talk about it because it's just it's, and it’s hard to understand cause like I don't fully understand, like why we don't talk about...

Amanda Duberman: Yeah, I know. I think that sort of made it, you know, and obviously everybody could do better. And I wish we did more. But definitely the thing that I heard that is repeated a lot that made me sort of really want to commit to coverage is that it is the only minority group you can join at any time. And like, you know, we all want to know that we're all walking around, we're all driving cars all the time like, anything could happen. Bodies don't, you know, non-disabled bodies break. Like, things happen. And I just think all the time, like at any time you could be in that group and I would not want to be treated the way like, I would not want to have to be treated the way that, that, that councilman was. I would not want to have to anticipate every time I do something, having to make sure there's accommodations. Like I just, like I said like, it could happen literally at any time. I'm a, I'm kind of a person who, like, catastrophizes, so it's like, there's no reason why any of us couldn't end up in this kind of, like, group. And then also kind of like, I can't... What's the name of the docu-, after seeing Crip Camp that really affected me. I'm sure that's a lot of people's, like, intro experience, but that movie also like, I should have seen this before, but I think I didn't necessarily know how fucking badass the disability rights activism has been throughout history and like, literally just like the most badass things that have happened to get legislation done and to kind of like get equality. And that really affected me as well is that, you know, the people that have had to fight for it are like the people that are like, still still fighting for it. And like, like you said, I think there's like…I think the media is scared of looking at people with disabilities with like, a victim mindset. But when you actually do sort of like, engage with these stories like nobody's nobody's a victim, like...

Jillian Curwin: No. And you brought up the councilman. And I think that's the perfect example of kind of what you're saying in illustrating the fact that the media doesn't know how to talk about it correctly. So this was last week. A Denver councilman was at an event and in his role as a councilman and he had to crawl out of his power chair onto the stage because there was no ramp. He could not access the stage in any other way. And you cannot…a power chair weighs, I'm not a member of the community, so if someone please correct me if I’m wrong.

Amanda Duberman: I think they said they reach like 400 lbs. His weighed 400 lbs. and he said he weighs 200 lbs. Yeah.

Jillian Curwin: It's heavy. You can't lift it up. And as someone who can, who is ambulatory, I don't like being picked up and like, you don't like…Disabled people I, I've noticed and like, I've definitely come to understand like, are very careful with how their bodies are treated in terms of how people touch them, lift them. Like, and there's a video of it, you see him crawling out of his chair and it went viral on social media. And then I saw somewhere, and it still might have been on social media saying like, don't post this like, it's disrespectful, it's dehumanizing. And he was the one who was like, I want this video out there. I want people to see this. And yet, to the best of my knowledge, I didn't see it on CNN, I wasn't expecting to see it on Fox, or like, MSNBC. And it's like…if this like…this is…he cannot…he's…It's 32 years after the ADA. We're going into year 33 and he still can’t, like he, in his job, like we…the access is still not there.

Amanda Duberman: Yeah. And the place was like, oh, we always deal with this as long as we know ahead of time. But it just seems like there should not like, you should just always assume every day that somebody is going to need to access every part of your space. I thought that was just the rules we were all operating under.

Jillian Curwin: Right. And you would like, and it's like, there's such this [need to] protect like, care to protect property over people in regards to like, accessibility. And, you know like, there's all these like, grandfathered clauses for like, historic properties. They don't have to necessarily make the accommodations even if they are public spaces because they're historical. I don't understand how installing an elevator or installing a ramp diminishes the historical value of a property, but apparently it does. Get someone who can explain that to me because that's why, you know, theaters, a lot of Broadway theaters here in New York are inaccessible. Like there's a lot of spaces where we’re still, I think they've been saying that they're going to make the subways accessible for years and generations, probably, and they’re still like, my subway station is not accessible. The one that I, that's closest to me, it's not accessible. And it's just like, but the fact that people are like going…He was saying he wanted that moment to go viral. He was saying I want people to see this, going back to the councilman.

Amanda Duberman: And that wasn't hard to find. That's, I think, the distinction is that like, that's not really hard for a New York Times journalist to really seek out. And that is the key distinction like, and especially in these days of like, social media, number one, this was a public person. So you could easily find him to make sure that he wanted that story told. Sometimes this happens when I see it most commonly, unfortunately, when airlines damage people's chairs, and if they want that known, they will say so and it will surface. And it's like, if this woman is tweeting about this airline losing her chair, then she wants people to know and she needs it amplified like, you're not going to really know about it unless…Yeah, I think it's pretty easy to tell the distinction between somebody who clearly has no agency in this situation, who can't be contacted, who you can't confirm whether or not they want that part of their story told and, like, a literal like public figure.

Jillian Curwin: Right. And like, compare and contrast that with what else is happening with like, John Fetterman’s announcement that he is seeking mental health treatment. And like, all during the campaign, you know, it was…We knew that he had a disability and seeing how there were a couple of moments during the campaign, and this is where like, where ableism came into perspective, and disabled people called it out, it was like talking about he did an interview and the focus was like on how the reporter couldn't understand because of the captioning device. And like on Twitter people are like, this is incredibly ableist. To the best of my knowledge I didn't see an apology written by this journalist and it was like, if this was any other type of prejudice one, I don't think they would do it. And two, if they were called out for it, I think then they would have apologized. And to the best of my knowledge and someone can correct me, I will double check and insert a correction if I need to. I don't think that they apologized for how they reported that story. And it's like, why can't we talk about it respectfully? Why can't we talk about it…

Amanda Duberman: Right.

Jillian Curwin: Like why? You know like, the ableism seen during that campaign was just, it was awful to watch and then like, and it's like, it shouldn't be brave that he admitted that he's getting treatment for mental health, but yet it is because we don't, because there's such a stigma to it.

Amanda Duberman: Mmmhmm. Yeah. And I mean, of course, like, I obviously am not going to diagnose anyone or speculate, but I mean, I think that I would suspect that a huge contributing factor to his depression, and I do think that the statement said this, was that he was recovering from a really intense experience, from a stroke, and then how he was treated, and how the other campaign kind of weaponized that against him at many points, and how, at every time that, like you said, like reporters could kind of point out the accommodations and to a public that is not necessarily super educated on like, literally the captioning is like… I can't like, I used subtitles and a lot of people listening who, who are not hearing impaired…Sorry is that the right way to say that?

Jillian Curwin: Yeah, I think you can say hearing impaired. Hard of hearing. Yes

Amanda Duberman: Like, I use subtitles and you know, I am not hearing impaired. A lot of people use the things that are out there. And so I think that, you know, you had a public who was not super educated on, you know, how much these accommodations really like, what a burden they really are and how much, how much different they really set people up than their opponents just kind of like, receiving that reporting as like constantly othering him.

Jillian Curwin: Right. And it's like, there's such this misconception, and I think part of it is perpetuated, that accommodations are advantages and they're not.

Amanda Duberman: It's equality. Like that's, I think that's the fundamental way you have like…I look at this is like, you're not, you're not…I mean it's like that fucking drawing. They show picture, they show kids. It's like, you're not equal. If somebody starts up here and somebody has like, is standing on this stool, like, but for some reason with certain, like, recovering from something like that or disabilities that are invisible, people just don't buy it. They don't buy it. They just want to kick the stool out from under you.

Jillian Curwin: Right. Literally, like, literally want to do that. And it's, and it's interesting cause like, we know that FDR was disabled. We know that he was in a wheelchair for all of his presidency and he got us through World War II. We know that there have been past presidents as well who've been, who are, who were disabled, JFK comes to mind, and he also, he actually did not really…people were more aware of his disability while he was alive and also a candidate. But like, they still tried to hide it. But, and even now with…we know Joe Biden has a stutter, yet, like…And we have Senator Tammy Duckworth in office. We have Congresswoman Ayanna Pressley in office. Like, we know that disabled people are capable of leading, are capable of rising to the highest office in the land. And so, like my question to you, as someone who covers this, like, why do you then think that there is just like ableism in the media? That disability is treated like this by people whose job it is to simply report and cover the news, maybe not even be activists in the way you guys are with the Betches Sup, but like to just cover the news?

Amanda Duberman: I mean, it seems like, what like, straight reporters think like, especially when they would cover the Fetterman stuff and how they would defend it is like, we're just covering the facts. Like, why would we, you know, why would we omit that he's using, you know, closed captioning? But like, we all have, I don't know if this is a great metaphor but like, you know, we all have tools like…Nobody comes, you know, I don't go to interview people and I'm like, “You're really relaxed. Did you take your Prozac this morning?” You know, like, we don't all have to just like, like I said before, the things that equalize us don't necessarily need to be remarked upon. But I think that journalists see it as like, their responsibility to absolutely describe everything within an inch of its life. And then with disability, because those things tend to be more visible, like, yeah. You're not going around asking lawmakers if they take Adderall, you're not going around asking lawmakers like if they have a personal chef that, let's say, helps them biohack so that they, you know, can elevate their performance. Like, the things that people do to function in society at an equal level, you know, I think people like, the media tends to remark upon it much more with people with, with disabilities.

And I think it's also because like, and you know, we encounter this in our work is like, you know, there's, there's racism in there, sexism, and with ableism, it's like such a, such a broad, as you know, like, range of disabilities and range of applications. And so I think that I think that sometimes journalists feel like if everything is ableist, then nothing is. So they're just like, not even going to try.

Jillian Curwin: I'm curious to know if like, you agree like, like kind of talking about like, the different types of prejudices and how like, there's clearly like one side of the political aisle that is more overt with their prejudice and less shameful about it. And then there's another side that likes to call them out. But like I said before, both sides are equally ableist. I talked to someone like, in a past episode, very past episode, like Obama exhibited ableism. We saw ableism on both sides of the coverage of President Trump. We see it a lot with Joe Biden right now. Like, both sides are equally guilty of it. And like, do you think maybe that's why they don't want to call it out when someone does it? Because then they know that it's going to get turned back on them and say, well, you did it.

Amanda Duberman: I mean, honestly, we're dealing with like, mostly people who are over 50, who are like, just like, do not understand what they're saying. And that doesn't excuse it. They shouldn't be like, so incurious. But yeah, I feel like it's probably on like, the slightly younger generation to be like no, this is part of our activism. Like, like I feel like there has been times where even Joe Biden like, had to learn like, no, you can't kiss lady's heads, you know, like, you can’t, you can't do these things. And I think there's still like a, a slight resistance, like I said, because with a lot of ableist things like, I think some people feel like there's so much to learn, and there's a lot of areas to accidentally offend or, and I just think it causes some like resistance for people to even like try. But honestly, it's like the frustrating answer is that it's probably just like, not a priority for, for these people to address it and for… And I don't think they realize how many people around them like, do have disabilities who they are potentially like microaggressing all of the time.

Jillian Curwin: Right. And part of that comes from, and it was from a story that you actually shared with me this morning before we recorded, you know, with the reporting on the employment rate for Americans with disabilities reached a record high in, last year, which the article kind of said, and it is, it is kind of surprising in the sense that, as a disabled person, it is very hard to get a job. It is very hard to be disabled in America for financially, socially, for many reasons. It's very hard. But, you know, part of this could be that, in one sense, we have worked to a more remote, hybrid setting where a lot of offices are either come in as you like, come in a couple days a week, or don't come in at all, you can work from home, which allows disabled people, particularly those who truly have not been able to leave their houses since the pandemic started, to work. But at the same time, the number of disabled people has greatly, dramatically increased because people are dealing with symptoms of long COVID and are now finding themselves disabled, where prior to the pandemic they weren't. But at the same time like, we'll never know how accurate this these numbers are because disabled-

Amanda Duberman: You know, like, I sent you this because I was like it was like, Biden administration says this. This is the best ever. And I was like, I have a feeling there is some caveats here. And Jillian immediately was like, yeah, here are about 4 to 5 caveats.

Jillian Curwin: There was a couple. And I think the biggest one, that I didn't think about until someone pointed out with a different issue, is that we will never truly know how much of our workforce, or how much, many people in general are actually disabled because people do have a right not to disclose.

Amanda Duberman: Yeah.

Jillian Curwin: They have a right to conceal. Some people can, like, some people are, their disabilities are invisible and choose to conceal. And that is absolutely their right. There are some people who, like myself, who can't and, you know, like that definitely plays into, in terms of getting a job, which is why I don't like the voluntary disclosure form because no non-disabled person is going to check “I don't wish to answer”. No non-disabled person is going to do that. Why would they?

Amanda Duberman: Can I ask you a question, Jillian? Should they? Is that beneficial to potentially disabled colleagues?

Jillian Curwin: I don't know. Like, I'm curious. Like, I don't know because like, I struggle with that. I go very much back and forth with employment, in other aspects of, aspects of life, in choosing whether or not to disclose before meeting someone in person. Employment probably being the biggest one. And I don't want to lie and say no because I feel like that goes against my just like, personal beliefs, but also like, even though it shouldn't play a factor, like I'm lying to them on my application. Like, I'm like, I don't want to go into any start of a new job lying to them, even though it is something that could at least get me the interview. But choosing not to answer, you know, it's like, in a way, it's almost like…I guess this is the only analogy. I don’t know if it's necessarily true but it’s an analogy I think people’ll understand. It's like pleading the fifth. Like, choosing not to incriminate myself. But it's…And it's also…But it's still at the same time, kind of like, yeah.

Amanda Duberman: Right. And exactly. For all of those reasons. Yeah. Like, a non-disabled person, there would be no, like, my… probably not perceive any benefit to being like, I don't wish to answer, which tells you everything you need to know. Yeah.

Jillian Curwin: Right, and like I wouldn't expect a non-disabled person to say “I don't wish to answer” whether or not they're disabled. I wouldn't expect…we live in a society that, you know, that just, it's the world we live in. I wouldn't expect it to…And it would be curious, like to see though. Like, like that was like an experiment psychologists did. If just everyone chose not to answer, or choose not to answer, and see who gets interviews and just see... Because then if everyone is saying that, that does kind of level, level it out a little bit. I'm curious to see what that would... But I mean, it's like, it’s interesting because like, and it's like, it's like yeah like that story, I think was written to definitely kind of like be a positive like, look this is great. But at the same time it's like there's a lot of caveats in these numbers and yeah, and it's like.

Amanda Duberman: Yeah, I think it is a great thing to point out for your non-disabled listeners, or even just anyone like, that like, it's just part of media literacy. Like, listen, I, we're not, we're not shy on the Sup about who we support, but we don't support like, the President blindly. And of course, they're going to release reports that are like, here's all the, here's what we did for you. And of course, like, like when you put on your resume, you don't put the projects that you fucked up. Like, there's always going to be another layer to it. So there's definitely like, media literacy towards this, just sort of like, reading into like, okay, what does that actually mean? What do disabled people say about like these, these outcomes and how this report was put together?

Jillian Curwin: Right. And, you know, it goes like, and I think it just all plays back into the fact that where it's 2023, I keep wanting to say its 2022 and it’s not, and, you know, I'm curious if you agree like, as someone who’s been in this, in the in the media for a long time like, it still feels like we just don't, they just truly, is just true like, lack of understanding on how to talk about disability. Um, and, you know, even now with social media, and I think that's what's more frustrating is social media, it is talked about, but we're not seeing these voices heard. Like you said, to the Gen-X and older populations who aren't on social media, who aren't, you know, following it that way as well.

Amanda Duberman: Yeah. And I do wonder if like, the people that, you know, are like slightly older and maybe dominate the leadership at media outlets, or in certain like political circles, like, and now I'm talking people like 60 and older, where I do think that certain disabilities, especially that impacted like neurological function or or just ability to move the world, were kind of like, kept quiet and hidden away. And the people that, you know, like the Senate's old as fuck and the reason they're not talking about it is because like they, growing up, they grew up being told, like, we don't talk about this, this is a family matter, this is a domestic matter, or they felt like it showed a weakness or that it like literally was not a disability. So I think it's like, there's so much of, I feel like, the failure to fully like incorporate disability activism just into kind of like, political discussions more broadly, I think it’s just because like, people are reluctant to engage with it, because they're reluctant to engage with it, because they feel like it is upsetting. But the reason it's upsetting is because we're not engaging with it and creating opportunities to create a more equitable world. Like, that's why I said, like, as soon as you're like, at any time, I might have to depend on an airline, you know, not fucking with my mode of transportation. And I don't, maybe a lot of people just don't want to think about that, which is not acceptable.

Jillian Curwin: Right. And then. Right, exactly. And so then I'm wondering, why do you think though, when we see movements, like we saw with Black Lives Matter, we're seeing, you know, when we saw with the women's movement, you know, remember like, after Trump was elected, there was a rally, like everyone's coming together, where even if you kind of disagreed or you weren't part of these communities, you still…and they were uncomfortable topics, but people talked about them. It was discussed. Like, you couldn't get like, it was, it became part of the discourse, even though there was large sections who are uncomfortable with it. Why do you think then, based on your understanding of the landscape and also who's making these decisions, that we're still just even though we know that there's an uncomfortability with disability, why is there just this silence?

Amanda Duberman: It's hard because it's like, okay, you don't want there to have to be a George Floyd moment, as it were, for disability. But I also feel like there's, there's plenty like, there's probably lots of horrific footage that would upset people nearly as much as that video did. And I don't know, I don't know if it's because, like, do you need that moment for, for vision impairment? Do you need something horrible in public to happen to a blind person? Do you need something horrible in public to happen to a Deaf person? And then you need something horrible in public to happen to, you know, a person with wheelchair, in a wheelchair? I think it's just like yeah. It's like, like I've said, it's like there's sort of disparate needs, and I feel like that relieves people of feeling like there's one. Like it's not a neat solution. It's not a, not that solving racism is either, but people just are like, okay, be less racist towards Black people. They're not like, okay, be more mindful about, you know, sidewalk ramps in your city. Like, I don't know, I…maybe the ask is just too much for people and that’s sort of why it's not broached as much. But it is hard. I don't know the answer because we've, there's been so many upsetting moments captured that should have spurred something like this.

Jillian Curwin: Right. That's why I'm like, that's why I'm like…I agree and I don't because I've seen, you know, right now, I think one of the viral topics on social media in the disability community, and has been viral, and has been ongoing for quite a few years, more than since I've been aware, longer than since I've been aware, is talk about airlines and wheelchairs. I've had many friends in the wheelchair user community who have had their chairs broken, and there was an activist who, the airline broke her chair. And because she couldn't like, because she couldn't access a chair that fit her body, everything that happened to her after that, it wound up killing her. And you know, like so we've had those moments where, you know, we've just seen even with a Congressman, the Councilman who has to crawl out of his chair. Talking about the dwarfism community going back all the way to 2012, Peter Dinklage called it out in his, um one of his awards, Golden Globes…my brother's going to be mad at me if I don't get this right, Golden Globes win when he won for playing Tyrion, he called out an incident of dwarf tossing that had fatal effects. Like it, the, he was, the man was injured and you know it had like, like we had we've had these moments and they are, yeah, and like they are called out but yet…

Amanda Duberman: It is hard to think how the, I think her name was Engracia Figueroa, who had a spinal cord injury. They ruined her chair and then she had body sores, which ultimately resulted in her dying. And that was like, a straight line. But like, again, I think media organizations are like, like with George Floyd, like they want a video of the airline, it's like they want a video of an airline employee using a bat to bash in, you know, a wheelchair. And then that's like, the clearest…And then that, like, that's what they need to cause and, and these things happen, and then they get some attention. And then I feel like the, if they get solved, it's like, well, the people that survive, they ultimately like, will repair their chair. But it has to sort of like, take more ,or there has to be like the, just the resolution has to be something other than like they pay for the chair every time they break it because that's an incredibly disruptive thing in life, I have to imagine.

Jillian Curwin: Yes. And I'm not, I'm not a wheelchair user. I don't know. But like, my friends like, it happened to my friends. My one friend recorded a video of my, of her friend who, they broke her, chair arguing with the airline. It went viral. Like, she's arguing, crying with them. She's like, you don't understand what you've done. It's not just, it's not just a chair. Like these are whether you have your mobility…like these are our bodies, mobility devices are part of our bodies. And it's like, what's it gonna take? You know?

Amanda Duberman: Yeah, it just seems like every airline should have a person who has, who uses a wheelchair, who flies, give a talk and give like an hour long education about, like, this is, these like, this is how I get around. These are my legs. If you fuck with this, you fuck with like…They just need to hear it in that sobering language like, from the beginning, but it's just probably not part of the training. I mean, maybe it is, but it's not, it's not good enough. Like, if you're getting sexual harassment training, if you’re getting racial sensitivity training, honestly, even before that, like 20% of people are disabled. And the reason it's always surprising to me that it doesn't get more attention is that like, yes, we know, you know, it's 20%, right? Of the population are disabled. But then like, the amount of percentage of people, of family members like, it just feels so many people are just so used to dealing with this privately when it's like, but you're not functioning as an equal person. Like, if you have to do all of this by yourself all of the time, every time.

Jillian Curwin: Right. And like, it's either we're dehumanized or we're inspiration porn and neither are okay. Neither are okay. We're either dehumanized or we're inspirational. And it's like, like those two don't make sense. Like, how can we be both? But yet we are. And that's how, like, the media, like it's either it's, that's, that seems to be it. And like we saw like, July is disability pride month. June we see everything go, everything turns rainbow, we're celebrating LGBT Pride Month, all the businesses are doing it. July, July 1st comes and there's nothing for disability. And it's like and it's just like I'm frustrated.

Amanda Duberman: Yeah. And as we're talking, I wonder if it's because like, there's just the lack of like commercialization around it, like there is for Women's History Month. And like, even the past couple years, we've seen a lot more activity in mainstream activity around AAPI month. But that's also because, number one, the aggressively hard work of people from that community who's, who have been spotlighting that year after year. And then again, unfortunately, because of the rise in hate crimes, I think you saw more mainstream outlets be like, okay, this is a time to take advantage of, of this opportunity to tell more of those stories. And like you've said, like, we don't really need to wait for more publicized instances of lethal or near lethal, like things happening to people with disabilities because of their, of their disability. So it's like, yeah, I don't know. I don't, I don't have an answer for why the mainstream media seems to abandon it. Other than they don't see a benefit to themselves other, and they don't see it as their responsibility for whatever reason.

Jillian Curwin: Right. But it's like the world went through a, the…we went through a global disabling event. We're still in it really.

Amanda Duberman: But also, it’s like nobody wants to talk about it, which is also probably the problem.

Jillian Curwin: It's like, so then, I’m curious because you made this distinction earlier and I kind of want to circle back to it. You talked about how you guys are also like, act like, when you're reporting and how you cover the news, you approach it from like, an activism perspective. Can you go into a little bit more into like, what it means that you do like, how that differs from the way MSNBC, CNN, Fox covers the news? Like what…? What, where's that distinction?

Amanda Duberman: I mean, I guess, whereas like a lot of times you'll sort of see people dance around like the real cause of something, we’ll try to like make it pretty explicit, you know, like this is obviously a direct result of like Republicans who did this or, you know, because of Reagan did that. But yeah, I think just making those really explicit connections and tying them to like, the political atmosphere a lot of times, we’ll try to provide an actual action. I know sometimes people get frustrated when there isn't one, but that's kind of part of being a human being in 2023. Sometimes you just have to sit with being sad and upset and feel bad. And that's ultimately how things change, is that we don't accept that anymore. But yeah, I would say that we just sort of don't feel a need to be like, really by the book or, you know, we're pretty happy to like, make sharp connections between things rather than be like, you know, is this why they stormed the Capitol, you know?

Jillian Curwin: Right. And what I love in listening, and I listen to it every, like either I try to listen like, the night it comes out, or it's definitely like my morning the next day, listening to it.

Like, you're very, like the three of you- And when Sami and Kaitlin, and when you have guests on, like, you're very blunt like, you're very honest. Like, it feels, and it's like, I kind of wish, and I understand, I understand…I don't understand why our mainstream media isn't as, like, blunt and honest in their coverage, but it's like it's refreshing to hear that when I listen to you guys.

Amanda Duberman: Yeah, it's interesting because it's like sometimes I’ll like, go on other podcasts and like, we'll be talking about a conversation and I'm just like, ready. I'm like, we're all going to just like pile on here, right? And then like, well, in this context there's this, but then there's also this, and that. You have to consider that. I'm like, No, this guy's just an asshole. Like, for me, that's definitely like I, I've gotten my, I'm not naturally like that, but I've gotten much more confident. All of my co-hosts are much more naturally like that. Like Alise, Milly, Sami, and Kaitlin definitely like, have just a confidence in their opinions that I kind of had to, like, learn. But yeah, we, instead of kind of like going through all of those, here are the many different points of view that could have led to this decision. It's like, no, this decision was racism. Like, this decision was sexism. Yeah, but I'm glad that's what people like about the podcast.

Jillian Curwin: Then, I feel like I should’ve asked this at the beginning, but then I kind of want to ask now like, you run it. How do you decide, like, how do you then, as someone who has this freedom to approach it from that activism space and is aware, socially aware, of what's going on, how do you then decide what gets talked about in the podcast versus what gets talked about just on social media? And yeah, like how do you decide like, how do you do like, how do you moderate the coverage?

Amanda Duberman: A lot of it is like, I feel bad because a lot of people are like, why aren't you covering this? Why are you covering this? And they think it's like a, a like thoughtful, intentional decision. And it's like, because it's Saturday and we are a team of two. And that's why like in a lot of times it's not that deep. And a lot of times the stuff that gets covered is not necessarily because it's the highest priority. It's just like we had time in that moment to cover it, which is why I appreciate that, like, we're not sort of treated as a straight news outlet because we would be omitting a lot of very important news. The podcast definitely like, the stuff on the podcast, I'll say that the podcast is, we try to be funny when we can, for it to be like a light spot. But our hosts are really good at like, if there's something that's happening that everybody's talking about, we're going to talk about it, whether it's sad or not. And then, you know, we can usually find ways to usually there's something to satirize, even with something, you know, really upsetting because the people in power are just so dumb. But yeah, I mean, I think there's so much news all of the time. So the stuff that I'm prioritizing are usually the things that, like, I know, like other people that have access to me are able to like flag to me so that I know it's happening from those communities. But yeah, I mean, honestly, it's usually just a matter what we have time to do.

And then there are things that go by and it's like, this can't like, we have to make sure that we're, we're addressing this. And then there are plenty of things like the chatter. I try not to get too engaged with, like every stupid thing that Republicans are doing that's not going to matter. I would say that, in terms of the things that we're definitely not going to skip, are things that are going to matter or things that I know that if we can actually take a moment and slow down, we can have like a considerable impact with which, you know, might not be like fundraising for the entire Ukraine war, but it could be kind of like this little mutual aid fundraiser. So that's the stuff that I kind of, like, enjoy prioritizing, like sharing, you know, a news update about something that's going on and then being able to actually give people like an action that might that other outlets might view as politically charged. But I'm going to be like no, give to, give to abortion funds, pay for somebody's abortion.

Jillian Curwin: Right. Like, I think there is…and again, I understand why the news can't necessarily approach every story from that activism lens, but I think it's important. You know, I wish more outlets were like that. Like were, like, no, you actually…Here's a call to action. Like, here's a story, but then here's what you, if you were listening to it, here's what you can do about it. Like, I think that is so important.

Amanda Duberman: I would read so much more news because that's like, if I avoid the news, it's because I'm like, I'm just going to feel powerless and like, I can't do anything.

Jillian Curwin: Right. Then I'm wondering, like, as someone you're like with, you know, you have your finger on the pulse of everything. Like, are there any like bubbling stories coming up that you are like, you know, it doesn't necessarily have to be disability related, but obviously this is a disability kind of focused podcast, that you think that even myself needs to be more aware of? Like that you think that needs to be calling attention and that is not getting covered from that disability perspective yet?

Amanda Duberman: I mean, definitely you and I have talked a bit about, and I've talked to some other people, about the reproductive rights conversation, and just parenting and child rearing in general. And either direction is so consequential for people with disabilities. Like, the choice to have children. People, for some reason who don't have disabilities, have thoughts on that. And people with disabilities, their ability to access abortion care when needed. So definitely that's something that we want to spotlight all year round. But like, the thing about women's history, it's like, it really is, it's marketing. But it's like, for some reason, people do pay slightly more attention if you're like, pay attention to, you know, disability access to abortion because it's Women's History Month, they'll be like, okay, great, sounds great. But yeah, that, that element, I think there's just so much historical context as well too. That's like, so telling about how this country has treated people with disabilities more broadly. I feel like, if you, yeah….If you want to know like, more about an intersection, look at how women are treated in it and it will be pretty telling.

So I think that's an angle I'd love to prioritize more because, and also just like I said, not having kids like, there are so many countries around the world that are now having to like, really try to bribe people into having kids. And so I think it would be really interesting to interrogate like what is starting, what is the desire? Like what keeps women from disabilities, from starting families in the United States, and comparing that to other places.

Jillian Curwin: Right. And it's so interesting because, I mean, I could have a whole other podcast episode about this.

Amanda Duberman: Yeah. And obviously there is so much depending on like, what your disability is and, yeah.

Jillian Curwin: Right. But even also, going further, you know, kind of latching on to what we were talking about earlier with like, such a stigma and the reluctance to talk about it. There's just also a reluctance to see it. And yet how that counteracts with some of the other things that are happening to like those two, they’re diametrically opposed. And yet it's like disabled women we really…

Um, I'm trying to think of, like, I wanna end on like a positive, like more positive to talk about, um…[unintelligible]

Amanda Duberman: Well, I mean like...

Jillian Curwin: I can’t think of any…

Amanda Duberman: Fortunately, you, you, President Biden owes you a thank you for helping him with his disability report. You're gainfully employed.

Jillian Curwin: Yes. Yes, you're welcome, Joe.

Amanda Duberman: You're welcome, Joe.

Jillian Curwin: Who do you look up to?

Amanda Duberman: Um, who do I look up to? I don't know. I don't think about that very much. I feel like most people are so fallible. Um….Um….That's. I don't know why I don't think about that very much. Um, I mean, I mentioned like, Crip Camp and this is going to seem like, really lame and like I'm just mentioning for this podcast, but like Judy Heumann is honestly one of the most like badass activists who's ever like, been. Like, if you've seen content on her, she's just an icon. And I can't even believe she's like, still around. Like she's just been involved in sort of like every stage. And like, I just, I really love, like, women's protest photos from the 1970s, and there are so many of her. And yeah, I look up to her because she's just like, she's always going to do what needs to be done. Like, you can just tell she's never second guessed it. She's always just going to do it. And she doesn't feel insecure. She has the confidence to ask for, you know, what she and her peers deserve. And she's hilarious. I just adore her.

Jillian Curwin: Yes. We, we stan her here. So, um, such she's she's an icon. She's the moment, always.

Are there any questions I have not asked that you would like to answer?

Amanda Duberman: I don't think so. I think you covered everything.

Jillian Curwin: Okay. I love how confidently you answered that. Everyone’s always like, I don't know, and it's always like, trepidatious. I’m like, no, you can say no. That is a…

Amanda, it was great talking with you. This is now your time to plug yourself. Where can people follow you? Where can people listen to the Sup? Where can they follow the Sup? Plug yourself, plug the work you're doing.

Amanda Duberman: Yeah. I'm @amandaduberman everywhere. Amanda D-U-B-E-R-M-A-N and then obviously follow the Sup, if you are not already it. Will continue to work with Jill- Jillian who very generously spotlights these issues to us, as well as lots of other amazing people in our orbit. So we're going to hopefully continue to work with y’all.

Jillian Curwin: Yes. Oh, definitely. And I will have links to follow Amanda and the Sup as well as links to listen to the Sup in the show notes and as well as on the transcription page when that goes live.

Um, so to wrap things up, I have kind of like an icebreaker at the end. It's more fun that way. My podcast, I could do it where I have, I have five, but I have a couple others that I want to like tack on just because knowing you, I kinda wanna know…

Amanda Duberman: Okay, my computer's super low battery, so if I disappear, that’s why.

Jillian Curwin: Okay, we can wrap this up. We’ll do this quick. Favorite book.

Amanda Duberman: This is, like, so pathetic, but it really is The Bell Jar. Like, I'm safe, I'm fine. But Sylvia Plath’s The Bell Jar is great. It's like if you've seen Fleishman Is In Trouble, it's like all the same themes, but like 50 years ago. She's just, like, sad and wants to be all the types of ladies. So I read it all the time because I still feel that way.

Jillian Curwin: Got it. Favorite TV show.

Amanda Duberman: Of all time?

Jillian Curwin: All time, the moment, however you choose to answer.

Amanda Duberman: Probably Sex And The City.

Jillian Curwin: Favorite drink.

Amanda Duberman: A dirty martini.

Jillian Curwin: Yes. Favorite piece of advice you've ever given.

Amanda Duberman: Honestly, like, probably just it's not that serious. Like, it’s not that serious.

Jillian Curwin: Okay, perfect. Yes. Second to last, one favorite piece of advice you've ever received.

Amanda Duberman: It might be the same. Just that like, nobody's thinking about you as much as you are.

Jillian Curwin: Yes, I need to tell myself that more. Last one. As someone who's interviewed so many incredible people, do you have a favorite interview, a favorite guest, most memorable, like…? However you want to answer that.

Amanda Duberman: It's definitely Tammy Duckworth. She's just the best. She's come on Sup a bunch of times and she's always the most, like, relaxed. Her team is the easiest to work with. Like, I'm like, you wanna come on? Does she wanna come on? They’re like, yep. She's just fantastic. And she's an expert in everything and she's just, like, tireless in how she goes after…And she's very frank. Like, she's not, as I mean, obviously she's media trained, but when you talk to her, she's not you don't see with everyone else, I understand this. You sort of see them scan like what could I say that might upset Nancy Pelosi or might upset the leadership? But you see that she just has none of that. She just answers the question from Tammy Duckworth’s point of view. And it's very cool.

Jillian Curwin: I love that. Amanda, it has truly been a pleasure talking with you and having you on. You need to come back any time. Invitation's always open.

Amanda Duberman: I got you.

Jillian Curwin: The final, final- I'm going to hold you to that. The final, final thing I just have to ask is for you to remind my listeners in your most fierce, most badass voice possible that height is just a number, not a limit.

Amanda Duberman: Height is just a number, not a limit.

Jillian Curwin: Always Looking Up is hosted by Jillian Curwin and edited and produced by Ben Curwin. Please make sure to rate, review, and subscribe and follow on Spotify so that you never miss an episode. Follow me on Instagram @jill_ilana and the podcast @alwayslookingup.podcast for updates and check out my blog JillianIlana.com for more content about what it is like to be a little person in an average sized world.

Thanks for listening. See you next week.