Bri Scalesse On What It Means To Actually Be Inclusive Of All Bodies

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Jillian Curwin: Hi everyone. Welcome to Always Looking Up, the podcast where no one is overlooked and height is only a number, never a limit. Hosted by me, Jillian Curwin. Each week, I will be having a conversation about what it is like to live in a world that is not necessarily designed for you.

In this week's episode, I welcome back Bri Scalesse. Bri is a wheelchair user, model, influencer and advocate. This episode was recorded right after New York Fashion Week ended, where Bri wheeled the runways in three shows and absolutely slayed like the true queen she is. We discuss the disability hierarchy and what it means to have the wheelchair user be the icon for the disabled community, what disability representation looked like at this year's New York Fashion Week and the need for greater representation both on the runways and in the audience, examine what it means to be truly inclusive as a brand or a designer,  and so much more. Let's get into it.

Hi Bri. 

Bri Scalesse: Hi.

Jillian Curwin: Welcome back to the show. It has been way too long. I am so excited to be talking with again. Not that I don't talk to you every day, but…

Bri Scalesse: I'm excited to be back on the podcast.

Jillian Curwin:Yes, I was gonna say, well, we talk every day. We don’t record those conversations.

Bri Scalesse: Yes.

Jillian Curwin: So it's been very busy for you. And so, we're going to talk about Fashion Week and there's a couple other things going on in the community that, like, I wanted to discuss and yeah, I’m just very excited to have you back. So if my listeners didn't listen to your episode, which if you haven't listened to my first conversation with Bri, I think we recorded it over a year ago at this point, highly encourage you do so. I'll have a link to that in the show notes so you can listen. But for those who may not know who you are, why don’t you give a little, like, elevator pitch about yourself.

Bri Scalesse: Okay. Hi everyone. I am Bri Scalesse. I am a model, disability advocate, content creator. I started modeling in 2019 and it's been a pretty crazy ride ever since. I'm also a wheelchair user and a paraplegic.

Jillian Curwin: Yes, So I do want to… Usually I ask… the first question after I have you introduce yourself is how do you define being disabled? And I did ask you that last year. So I listened to that part of the episode and I want to hear if your definition has changed. So these are your words that you said.

Bri Scalesse: Okay.

Jillian Curwin: “Being disabled, to me, is really immensely about community. For me, being a disabled woman comes with this incredible community of other super strong, beautiful, powerful, interesting, intelligent, disabled people. And… so disabled, and being disabled, for me, is about existing in a world that isn't built for me and isn't built for my community. But having this incredible community behind my, you know, back and be a part of that keeps each other going in a world that can be really, really hard to navigate for us as disabled people. So…

Bri Scalesse: Yeah. I think all of that rings…

Jillian Curwin: You agree with your past self? Do you disagree?

Bri Scalesse: Yeah…No. All of that rings incredibly true. I think that the only thing that I would add is, like, being disabled is a really intimate relationship with your body and is a really interesting way of seeing the world. And I think you have to adapt so much to the world that you have to be really gentle toward your body, and really loving towards your body, and knowing that your body isn't the problem, that the world is. So I think that, yeah, the only thing I would add is just that really intense relationship that disabled people have with their bodies.

Jillian Curwin: Which is so true. And it's something I didn't think about really, consciously, until, honestly, I think becoming friends with you and like, with talking about being disabled and us living in different disabled bodies. But like, I never considered how careful we are, whether consciously or subconsciously we are, about our bodies and protecting them physically, mentally and emotionally. And I think that is a very important part about being disabled, especially in a world that is very not aware of what it's like to be disabled.

Bri Scalesse: Yeah, no, for sure. I think that, like, people don't realize the immense differences that a visibly disabled person goes through just going through the world.

Jillian Curwin: Right, and it’s even, I think, within the community, which is something I realize moving here and finding you and finding, like, the people who live here in the disabled community who aren't little people, is that even within the community it's very different, and there's a lot of things that I wasn't aware of, and I've definitely become more conscious of, and I think it's something that we all are like…I think that's something we're all kind of going through right now, is recognizing the other disabled experiences out there. 

Bri Scalesse: Yeah, I think every disabled body is so vastly different, even within, like, each community, right?

Jillian Curwin: Yeah.

Bri Scalesse: Like every disabled body is so different. But then when you take on, like, different disabilities, the needs are so different, like just the spatial needs and the physical needs are super different. And so yeah, there's a constant learning of like, okay, this is my needs as a person in a wheelchair, maybe someone else's needs as a person in a wheelchair are different. And then you take on a whole different disability and, like, those are super different. So it's a learning process, but it's essential and accessibility benefits literally everyone, so there's no reason to not think about each and every one of those needs.

Jillian Curwin: Right. And I think so often when non-disabled people are thinking about trying to make something accessible, it's always the person in the wheelchair. Like, does this work for them? And recognizing… They don't…There is a failure to recognize that it's not a one size, one solution fits all. And I think in the community that it's definitely, you know, as a little person, I've said this before that like, I didn't truly feel part of the disabled community for a long time. And part of it was just because, in the little person community, we didn't necessarily embrace disabled. We said, we're not. We said we're just… We're, we're just short.

But I think it's also the fact that, you know, when non-disabled think of disability, it's… the icon is the person in the wheelchair.

Bri Scalesse: Yeah.

Jillian Curwin: And I think it's definitely this hierarchy that I wasn't necessarily aware of, but it's definitely… exists that I think, you know, through our friendship and through other friendships with… within the disabled community of different disabilities, I think we definitely kind of challenged that, in a sense.

Bri Scalesse: Yeah, I totally agree that I think the non-disabled view of disability is super narrow and…

Jillian Curwin: Mmmhmm.

Bri Scalesse: So there's not an awareness for all of, as I said, the different needs of each individual disability. And I think that because, you know, on disabled parking and, and signs, we're like, oh, the disabled entrance, it is a wheelchair user. That's something I never really thought of either until meeting more disabled people that weren't wheelchair users and becoming friends with more disabled people. Like, it really is the icon of disability and disability needs and that's really, really interesting and strange.

Jillian Curwin: You're iconic.

[laughter]

Bri Scalesse: I think, like, it makes sense in, in the idea that like maybe access needs for a wheelchair user are the most specific. I think a lot of disabilities, people may be able to use stairs or may be able to get into a building with a single step versus, for a wheelchair user, that may not be possible. So maybe they think that like, a wheelchair user is, like, the furthest disabled on the spectrum. So like, if they cover for a wheelchair user, they're covering for everyone. I don't know. I don't know what the non-disabled thought process is, ever. But yeah, it doesn't. You know?

Jillian Curwin: I would love to get, like, a non-disabled architect, like, building planner to come on and explain the process.

Bri Scalesse: Yeah, to try and understand their brain.

Jillian Curwin: Yeah, because I think it also, you know, in the sense of, like, that the wheelchair is this iconic symbol for disability I think, in a lot o…f and this isn't putting down anything that has been done so far, I think it's just more saying there needs to be more in terms of like disability representation.

From my perspective, and I want you to challenge me if you disagree, of course, I think it seems like, again, they're only focusing on like, the most visible disability, which is like the person in the wheelchair, and making sure that that's included in these representations of disability. And some disabilities, and not just little people, but other disabilities as well, including invisible disabilities that we may not see, are still not getting the same representation either when there is actual… an attempt to have disabled representation.

Bri Scalesse: No, I totally agree with that. I do think the wheelchair user is definitely thought of when we are thought of at all. But I would say that it is still so, so, so rare. It's kind of like the crumbs that we all get, right? So maybe wheelchair users are getting the crumbs, but still like, disability is not being treated fairly or being equally represented. So I think it needs to improve for everyone. I think it's massively underrepresented for wheelchair users still.

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Bri Scalesse: So not challenging you. Just saying, like, we all need more representation.

Jillian Curwin: Right. And when I say that, you know, speaking to you as a wheelchair user, like I'm never attacking you. I think it's more attacking non-disabled society who is...you know…

Bri Scalesse: Their perception of what disability is.

Jillian Curwin: Exactly. Their perception, their perception of what disability is. And again, not taking down because, I mean, there's been some great examples of disability representation that you've been a part of. And I'm thinking of, specifically the Maybelline campaign, which is, I think, where I first had the idea to have this conversation with you. I guess it was a couple of months ago now? No. Yeah. It was in July.

Bri Scalesse: July. July.

Jillian Curwin: Yeah. What is time? I don't know. But I remember, because I had Julian on, a friend of both of ours, and we were talking about it. And I remember seeing that campaign, which is beautiful. And again, it was like a first like, major makeup company that I've seen that did specifically, like a, disabled… disability pride… was honestly one of the only brands who actually did something for Disability Pride, in general. And I was celebrating it, but at the same time a small part of me, no pun intended, was like, I still don't, as a little person, feel represented because they didn't…It…The scope was so limited of the disability representation that they had, and it was… what they did was fantastic.

Bri Scalesse: Yeah.

Jillian Curwin: But I think it's, again, saying that… I'm not putting that down. I'm just saying I want to see more and not just more in terms of quantity, but more in terms of like, quality, in regards to the just, you know, disabled community. Because we are so diverse, we are so vibrant. And, you know, no two wheelchair users are the same, so…

Bri Scalesse: Right.

Jillian Curwin: Let alone no two disabilities are the same.

Bri Scalesse: I think this really comes like, heavily, from the non-disabled community of like, as I said, giving us so little that like, then there's like inter-fighting or inter-frustration in our community because we get… what we get is so limited and it's like, oh, like, okay, I, I didn't see myself represented here. It's like, there's not a limited amount that should be given to us.

Jillian Curwin: No.

Bri Scalesse: It should be a limitless amount of representation. So yeah, I totally understand the frustration and I totally agree with it because it's just so limited that, like, it hurts, you know? Versus there should be room for all of us in, in all campaigns and all representation. So it's really, really frustrating. And I think it definitely stems from like, the non-disabled like, people in power letting only a small amount of us be shown, overall, in film and television and magazines and fashion.

Jillian Curwin: Exactly. And that expectation, it's like, well, we're doing it. Why? Like, why isn't this enough for you?

Bri Scalesse: Yeah.

Jillian Curwin: And I feel like if they said that to any other minority group, like, well… I don't think that would ever be implied of like, well, this is enough. Meaning we have like one type, this is enough. I don't think that that would be accepted.

Bri Scalesse: I definitely think, like, disability is the furthest behind in many ways. I do think that that was the case for a long time. And I mean it still can be the case, but, like, especially thinking back into like modeling and fashion, it was like, okay, we have one model of color on our runway…

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Bri Scalesse: We have one plus size model on our runway. And even now that's a huge thing with plus size models. It's like we have one plus size model on our runway. So yeah, I do think like it's still happening in other minority groups as well where it's like, you got your…

Jillian Curwin: Yeah.

Bri Scalesse: You got your, like, crumbs, so you should be happy. I just think it still has a long way to go for, for all minorities.

Jillian Curwin: Yeah, you're, you are right. And I'll, like, amend what I was saying to kind of go with what you were saying. I agree. I think we still have other groups have… as well have a long, long way to go. And again, it's more a reflection of where the non-disabled, white, cisgender people have to kind of… We're doing the advocating.

Bri Scalesse: Yeah.

Jillian Curwin: It's them listening to us.

Bri Scalesse: I've been in a lot of conversations with really incredible people, recently with crutches and spice (Imani Barbarin, @crutches_and_spice), and we have this conversation about how white supremacy kind of affects all of us in the sense of, like, people of color plus sized people, disabled people like it all falls under that. And we all are, like, deeply affected by that. And so like, yeah, we are all still struggling because any like body that's really different than, as you said, that norm of like white, cisgender, thin, often male…Yeah, we're just not treated the same.

Jillian Curwin: Right, and it’s… I feel like again, there's so many of us trying to advocate for it to change. And…. they're listening. This is going to kind of pivot into where I want to go next with Fashion Week. And they're listening. But even now, and you said in years past where it's like, okay, if we have one black model on the runway, we've done it. Like, look at us. We're inclusive. And in terms of other bodies, while that may not necessarily and, I'm not a model, I don't know for certain like, I think we've definitely made strides in making sure that we have racial representation and different ethnicities represented on runways. But, in terms of, like body type, whether it's curvier, whether it's disabled, there's still that mentality of well we have one.

Bri Scalesse: Yeah, I mean, I would say for disabled people, it's not even well we have one, you know? It is so, so few and far between that brands put a disabled, a visibly disabled person, you know. There definitely can be models with invisible disabilities that I don't know about, but a visibly disabled model on runways is so rare. So it's not even at that place like… I agree with you. It's definitely at that place with trying to include different ethnicities, trying to include even different genders, sometimes trying to include different body sizes. And then disability is like maybe one, two, three shows at fashion week will have some visibly disabled person on the runway, but it's so rare. So there is not even a box being checked for do we have disabled representation. Like it's more like am I going to go out of my way to seek disabled representation?

Jillian Curwin: Right.

So, let's get into Fashion Week because Fashion Week has come…? It's… is it officially over as of recording this?

Bri Scalesse: Yeah, it's officially over.

Jillian Curwin: It’s officially over. So you, you've rested. You’ve recovered. Let's start talking just first on the casting. Like what was the casting process like for you this year? Or this season?

Bri Scalesse: Yeah, it was vastly different this season than every book… ever before. I often feel like, really down and pretty, just like, hopeless around the time of Fashion Week because I think that runway is like, one of the last frontiers that really has been very ableist and really has kept disability out. It is so rare that it's like, such a massive moment when you see someone disabled on a runway.

Jillian Curwin: Mmmhmm.

Bri Scalesse: So it has always been really, really hard for me every time Fashion Week comes up to be like, am I even going to get an opportunity to be in front of someone as a casting director? So this year is really different because my agency really was focused on getting their models on runways and really worked super hard over like, six plus months prior to Fashion Week, trying to ensure that they could get us on runways.

And so I did, maybe like, five castings pre-Fashion Week, and then I ended up getting three shows, which is the most shows that I've ever gotten for a Fashion Week, and ended up attending another, and then even got another show opportunity through that. So yeah, it was a pretty incredible Fashion Week and I would say not just for me, but seeing other disabled people on the runway as well. It was mainly wheelchair users. So I will say that, and then seeing someone with limb difference as well. But I would say the diversity that I've seen so far is limited to wheelchair users and, and people with limb difference on the runways.

Jillian Curwin: Gotcha. In the shows that you were in, were you the only visibly disabled model?

Bri Scalesse: Yeah, I was the only visibly disabled model for sure in those shows.

Jillian Curwin: I want to ask and you can say you don't want to answer, which I… But like… What did that… How did you feel, like, kind of knowing that you were the only that you were, in their sense, like checking the box? 

Bri Scalesse: Yeah. I do want to go back and say that there were models with vitiligo and, I don't know… It depends on, I know, the individual person whether or not they identify as disabled. So, I think that's like an individual thing.

Jillian Curwin: Yeah.

Bri Scalesse: And that was one show that I was a part of that was just truly incredible. It was Studio 189 and they worked so hard to get so many different bodies on the runway. They had a pregnant woman, they had a family and the woman was breastfeeding. They had age, inclusivity, size inclusivity like, just like truly, truly put so much into it. Gender inclusivity. Yeah. It was an incredible show. So I didn't feel in that show like, although I was maybe the only visibly disabled person pending how people identify, there was so much representation in each model that it didn't feel at all like, oh, like we're checking a box. It felt like we want this group of people behind this stage and on this stage to be so representative of the entire world. So that was really beautiful and I feel like that was really done right where it's like, we want to find people that just represent the world.

I think that for all the shows that I'm a part of, and even all the campaigns that I'm a part of, it usually is someone who truly wants to represent many groups of bodies. It's rare that I felt like, oh, they're just checking a box or oh, I'm just a token because, especially on runway, for the other shows I was a part of as well, you've worked so hard for this collection. You worked so hard for this line. You worked so hard for these clothes. This is a huge career moment for you, so you're not going to take a chance just to have a moment of inclusivity, just for people to pat you on the back like these… this is your line. These are your clothes. These are like something you put your heart and soul into. So, to have someone on your runway wearing those clothes representing you, you have to really want them there, and you have to really like want them in that space. So, although runway is massively behind, when I am on a runway, more than even like big brand campaigns, I think I do feel like, okay, they really want me here because I know that this is important to them, so I'm going to take it seriously too.

And so, I do think that like, when I am chosen for a runway, there's a reason. And it’s not just because like, they want to be patted on the back, but because like, they have a bigger vision for what they want to see in the world. But that's why it's so rare, because a lot of people don't have that vision.

Jillian Curwin: Exactly. Are the clothes that you're wearing for runway…? Because I know, you know, obviously there's a big campaign by the disabled community for adaptive fashion and there aren't many brands there yet. And I want to get…There's a conversation I want to have with you about that in a second. But, are they then like… were they casting for, specifically for a wheelchair user? Or are they taking this and seeing you and they're like, I want you in these clothes. I'm going to then adapt what I designed for a non-disabled person for you.

Bri Scalesse: Yeah no, for sure. I think, as far as I know, although I'm not 100% behind the casting process, my agent deals with all of that, I think that they were just very open to seeing all different types of people. My agent sent out, you know, the roster of people that were doing New York Fashion Week from our agency, and they were like, okay, yeah, let's do it. Let's see this person. So I think it was more like, seeing me in person and then casting me from there. But they weren't looking for a wheelchair user because, as far as I know, I didn't see any other wheelchair users at the casting. So it wasn't like they were trying to fill a hole it was more like I was given to them and they were like, oh yeah, okay, let's try it. Let's see.

And then yeah, from there they made the clothes work for my body. They weren't adapted in the sense of like, adaptive wear, but they were adapted to fit my body, you know…

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Bri Scalesse: To fit my size, to fit me. A lot of models are much taller than me, so they all had to be adapted to fit my size, my, my five foot body. And they decided to do that based on seeing me and being like, yeah, I want this on my runway. I want this person, these wheels.

Jillian Curwin: In a sense I love that more…

Bri Scalesse: Yeah.

Jillian Curwin: Because of the fact that like again, they see it, and they're like, we want you. And it's not like, okay, again, like you said, like it's not necessarily checking a box. It’s like, no, this is the right person…

Bri Scalesse: Right.

Jillian Curwin: To be in this outfit that I worked, you know…

Bri Scalesse: Yeah.

Jillian Curwin: Months in designing, in sketching, in picking out the fabrics…

Bri Scalesse: Yeah.

Jillian Curwin: And making samples, and now I'm… I want to take that step to then, making sure that not only can she wear it, she can wheel in it and work it on the runway the way any other non-disabled model is going to walk it on the runway.

Bri Scalesse: Yeah.

Jillian Curwin: So I kind of love that. Like it wasn't like a specific adaptive… or like, that they weren't again, like trying to like fixes like… No, this is just… she is the right person to be in this outfit.

Bri Scalesse: Yeah. Yeah. And I think it means like, as you said, like, I know that I did a good job at the casting. I know that I'm a good model. And it's not just like, oh, they care about the chair, you know?

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Bri Scalesse: They're looking at me. And I think that that's what's really important and I think that's what should be considered. Like, obviously we need to consider representation and putting all types of bodies on runways, but also like, to be chosen for who I am is beautiful too, you know?

Jillian Curwin: Right. Like, would you then say like there's a difference between casting the person versus casting the chair?

Bri Scalesse: Yeah, for sure. I think that there are certain campaigns, again, brand campaigns, that are casting for a wheelchair user. And I've seen it. I've seen it on casting networks and the casting website where it's like looking for a wheelchair user. I think that, I do see, and I don't know if it's a good or a bad feeling, but like, when I go into the casting and I do my runway wheel, people are really surprised. It's been like multiple times where people's reactions are like, whoa, I didn't expect that. Like, I think they were open to seeing me and were like, ehhh, we'll see what happens. And then they're like, oh, we kind of want her, which is amazing. But also, it's like, kind of sad that they didn't expect me to be as powerful as I am in my wheel.

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Bri Scalesse: So, there's still a lot of perceptions that need to be changed. And, I don't want to say the brand, but one of the brands that I did work with for Fashion Week, the casting director told me that they had to fight for me to be, you know, casted, and it was ultimately their decision. But, I don't think I should have been told that.

Jillian Curwin: No.

Bri Scalesse: It was the day of the show. And so I definitely don't think I should have been told that because it just kind of was then a million thoughts going through my mind before going on the runway…

Jillian Curwin: Of course.

Bri Scalesse: When I should’ve been focused on like, being in my powerful wheel. But, it's interesting because I was really curious, then, about the conversations that were being had behind the scenes and what was being said.

But I know, and I could see this casting director’s vision, and I was like, okay like, I'm, I'm down for that and I know I'm going to have to fight to change the world, to change fashion. But it's still like, not something you want to hear, you know?

Jillian Curwin: No, especially not the day of the show.

Bri Scalesse: Yeah, the show.

Jillian Curwin: Which… oh gosh, I can't even imagine that like extra amount of, like, just like things that anxiety almost…

Bri Scalesse: I had to, like, let it go kind of, because I had already been casted and like it… I guess it did cause extra anxiety in the sense that like…One of the biggest problems that I have, which is probably small in some sense, but it's really big in another sense, is like, the shoes that I'll wear, particularly for a runway. They're usually pretty open for, like, shoots and things like that for, like, trying different shoes. But for runway they have, like, a specific shoe that they usually want the models to wear.

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Bri Scalesse: And they want specific shoes to go with their looks. And, for one of the shows, it was like intense, like a platform, like massive, really thin heeled platforms. And that's just like not easy for my foot plate, for my feet. So I was so nervous for that, like, runway, and going down that runway with those heels. I was like, is my foot going to fall off? Are These heels going to fall off? Like, I've never worn anything like this. Like, I don't know. You’re trying to concentrate on all of these different things. And yeah, like going back to the comment that was said, like, you don't want that on your mind…

Jillian Curwin: No.

Bri Scalesse: When maybe you're concentrating on the dress or the shoes or whatever, like it may be that you're wearing.

But yeah, there's a lot of added layers for disability. And I think that something like, if someone asked me should I get into modeling as a wheelchair user, or as a little person, as someone who uses a mobility device, I would say you have to really be sure in yourself and your body because you are going to get comments and you are going to have people try and ask you to wear different things or do different things that you might not be comfortable with. So you really have to be secure in yourself and advocating for yourself, because it's a constant, constant advocating process. At almost every set, even if you have, like, an amazing, amazing agency, which I have, there are just like little things that come up and people touching your body and, and all of those things. So, I would… I want many, many, many more disabled models surrounding me, but I also don't want to give people this false hope that it's, like, all rainbows and butterflies. It's a lot of like, going through the mud.

Jillian Curwin: Right. And again, and it goes back to, like you said, like being very protective of our bodies, which I think we, as disabled people, naturally are. And then you're going into the fashion industry where that's all they care about, is their bodies. And they're going to kind of, you know…

Bri Scalesse: Yeah.

Jillian Curwin: It's like you're just a breathing mannequin in some sense, where they're going to just try to get you… make you work for their clothes that they have designed like, in that you’re there…

Bri Scalesse: Yeah. And it depends heavily on the brand. Some brands are incredible and will ask you, like, what are you comfortable in? And then some brands, someone maybe has been working in the industry for ten, 30 years when, as you said, models really were treated like mannequins in many ways.

Jillian Curwin: Mmmhmm.

Bri Scalesse: So, it's gotten better. But like you just have to be prepared for anything, at all times.

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Bri Scalesse: Yeah.

Jillian Curwin: And I was going to say this before but, if you haven't checked out Bri's Instagram, I highly suggest you do, and I'll have her include the links at the end so you can see her just slay, slay the runways that she wheeled this Fashion Week because… I mean, jaws were dropping and it wasn't because… It wasn't like celebrating, oh, look at this inspirational person in the wheelchair. It is look at this model slaying the runway.

Bri Scalesse: Yeah.

Jillian Curwin: Look at her work. Look at her work the clothes that she is wearing.

Bri Scalesse: Yeah. And that's how I felt when I saw, like, Julian’s runway and that, like, pose at the end…

Jillian Curwin: Yes!

Bri Scalesse: Which is so iconic. I was like, yes, like…It's about these moments of power and these moments of, like, this is our job, and we're good at it. You know what I mean? And like, we just want people to see that, and understand that, and like, I'm so proud when I get to see other people in our community do it. And yeah, I think that it's important for people to know like, I've gotten comments on Tik Tok and, and Instagram where it's like, oh, like they, the brand was just trying to like make themselves feel good by doing this and it's like, no, it was a moment. Like, it was a slay.

Jillian Curwin: Yeah. And it's interesting because I feel like there are some designers and some brands, and I won't name names, at least on the mic, that…that say that they celebrate different bodies, that say that they embrace diversity, and have been celebrated for their runway shows being diverse and being inclusive, and yet there's no disability. And, I think you know…

Bri Scalesse: Oh, totally.

Jillian Curwin: At least one…you know [laughter]. And like that's just, it's frustrating to me. And again like, seeing you and you being the only person, visibly disabled person, in most of the shows you wheeled in like…I want to see more and I want to see especially I want to see it from the brands and from the designers who say that they are inclusive…

Bri Scalesse: Yeah.

Jillian Curwin: Who say that they celebrate diversity, who say that they will design for any body type, type.

Bri Scalesse: Yeah.

Jillian Curwin: I think we're at the point, at least in the disabled community, and this could just be me speaking. I'm not speaking on behalf of the disabled community. I'm like, well, prove it by start designing for disabled people, because we're here. We've been here. Like, you can't say you're fully inclusive, or will design for any body, but still not include disability. You can't. I feel like you can't do that anymore.

Bri Scalesse: Yeah, I totally agree. I think that if you don't want to say that you design for all bodies, then, you know, maybe change that.

Jillian Curwin: Mmmhmm.

Bri Scalesse: But if you are saying that you design for all bodies, all bodies include disability, and a lot of different types of disability.

Jillian Curwin: Yes.

Bri Scalesse: And like, at least being open to it, right? Like, as I said, there are so many different types of bodies, but like, being open to having conversations with disabled people, bringing disabled people on your team, working with disabled models like, it's not going to happen overnight…

Jillian Curwin: No.

Bri Scalesse: But being willing to have those conversations and, and even just starting with one disabled model on your runway, and working with them and then going from there, and then continuing to include disabled people, once you have one on your runway. It's not just like a one time thing. Like, continue to work with disabled people. 

Jillian Curwin: I know exactly what you're referring to now, with that one.

Bri Scalesse: Yeah.

Jillian Curwin: And it's interesting you talk about working with disabled… not just models, but also disabled, like, consultants behind the scenes…

Bri Scalesse: Yeah.

Jillian Curwin: Because I talked about this, I think I talked about this with Julian when he was here and we met up for coffee, I said that, you know, there are some like, luxury fashion designers, mainly abroad that have been working with disabled consultants in… over a couple of years at this point. And I'm now wondering, I'm like, what work are you actually doing? Because your runways still don't include disability.

Bri Scalesse: Yeah.

Jillian Curwin: You're not including disability in even your editorials, in your campaigns. So what work is actually being done?

Bri Scalesse: Yeah, I think that's the thing is like, if you're going to bring on disabled consultants, like, you have to show what you've been working on, and you have to show the work, and you have to show the change.

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Bri Scalesse: And if you’re not, like, did you just bring on a disabled consultant to say you did it? Or did you bring on someone because you actually want to change?

Jillian Curwin: Right. And I'm aware that it does, that it does take time. I fully get that.

Bri Scalesse: Yeah, totally. I mean, to like roll out a line for sure.

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Bri Scalesse: But to say, like, we are implementing these small changes, as you said, to just include a disabled person in an editorial, like there's so many different types of disabilities like…

Jillian Curwin: Exactly. And it doesn't have to be, as you've demonstrated and as Julian has demonstrated, it doesn't have to be a… specifically adaptive wear…

Bri Scalesse: Yeah.

Jillian Curwin: That they are trying to design. It could just be taking what they have and putting it on a disabled body.

Bri Scalesse: Yeah.

Jillian Curwin: And you know, again, recognizing it takes time, but it's been with some of these brands I know of, it's been a couple years.

Bri Scalesse: Also for a lot of the big brands that I've worked with on set, they have like a seamstress on set, and they'll literally fit you in the morning, or you'll go to a fitting like a few days before ,and then they're like, you know, working on the clothes. And like, they've had to make some pretty drastic alterations to things I wear, whether that's, like, shortening or whatever it may be and like, they're amazing at it. It's their job, you know? And they're, they’re amazing at adapting those clothes in the moment. And as you said, it doesn't have to be the adaptive wear, but making it work so we can be seen in the ads and things like that. And I think, like, disabled people are amazing at adapting. You're incredible at it. Like clothing, like we can make it work.

Jillian Curwin: Mmmhmm.

Bri Scalesse: But we just want the option to see ourselves there in your clothes and then like, it's worth it to make the effort.

Jillian Curwin: Exactly. And I said this to someone yesterday, like, disabled people, as a whole, not, like, little people not like… Disabled people as a community, as a whole, are some of the most resourceful people…

Bri Scalesse: Oh, for sure.

Jillian Curwin: In the entire planet. Because again, we are constantly having to adapt in a world that is not designed for us…

Bri Scalesse: Yeah.

Jillian Curwin: And we make it work, somehow, every single day.

Bri Scalesse: Yeah. Resourceful. Creative. Like, I think that that is so beneficial for fashion particularly, that like, it's only a benefit to have us to work with us.

Jillian Curwin: Exactly.

Bri Scalesse: Yeah.

Jillian Curwin: And you know, like, like seeing you on these runways is a huge deal. Seeing Julian [Gavino], seeing Aaron [Phillip]...

Bri Scalesse: Yeah.

Jillian Curwin: On these runways is a huge deal. Aaron, if you're listening, come on the podcast.

Bri Scalesse: Also shout out to Kayla [Maria G] as well, who was on the Vogue runway and has limb difference.

Jillian Curwin: Yes. Any, like… Seeing that representation is great. And also, there are… There's one show in particular that is specifically for disabled models, which…

Bri Scalesse: There was two this season, actually.

Jillian Curwin: There was two?

Bri Scalesse: Open Style Lab opened New York Fashion Week…

Jillian Curwin: Yes!

Bri Scalesse: And they were amazing. Like, I had a casting that day, otherwise I was going to go to the show. I really wanted to. But the clothes were bad ass. If you haven't seen it, you have to go see the clothes because they were so, like, creative and fashion and cool and like, yeah… I really enjoyed seeing all the looks from that show, so I would love to see more shows like that where, like, disabled people are put in clothes that are just, like, really cool.

Jillian Curwin: Yes.

Bri Scalesse: Shout out Open Style Lab. They did, they did amazing.

Jillian Curwin: Shout out to Open Style lab. Yes, you were…. I totally… They just… I don't know why they did not… I…Cause I saw that and I was like, yes….

Bri Scalesse: It was before. Like, it was, I think the day before or two days before it started. So…yeah.

Jillian Curwin: Okay. Yeah. It was, like, right at the beginning, I think, of Fashion Week, it happened. And then there was another one. And I think those shows are great as well, but again, I think we want to see it more woven into regular Fashion Week.

Bri Scalesse: Yeah.

Jillian Curwin: And also, and I think this is just as important because I think, particularly at the one show where the only disabled people were the models, and there was a perception that if… that was the only way you could actually be in that room…

Bri Scalesse: Yeah.

Jillian Curwin: To kind of begin with. And I also would love to see more disabled people being invited to these shows, because there are disabled influencers out there.

Bri Scalesse: Yeah.

Jillian Curwin: You mentioned Crutches And Spice. I would put you and Julian certainly in that category.

Bri Scalesse: Yeah.

Jillian Curwin: You know, let's see them in the front  like, just being a part of that fashion community. It's not just the models and the designers.

Bri Scalesse: No.

Jillian Curwin: It is…

Bri Scalesse: No, I was literally going to say and that makes a huge difference too. I mean, influencers have, you know, large audiences and large platforms, and disabled people should be in the audience.

Jillian Curwin: Yeah!

Bri Scalesse: I think that's as important as disabled people being on the runway. Especially because the audience and like, the people who attend these shows are also looked at as, like, super important, and have photos taken of them, and, like, affect the kind of cultural narrative. So, there needs to be disabled people in the audiences.

I remember when I was rolling the Project Runway runway…

Jillian Curwin: Yeah.

Bri Scalesse: And Tatyana [McFadden] was in the audience and that was just, like, such a nice feeling to have another person there that looked like me, like, watching.

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Bri Scalesse: Like, there's just something really different about that. Like, you have, like, all of these non-disabled eyes on you, and then you have someone from your community, and it's just, like, meaningful. It added an extra layer where I was like, I don't know, something in me was kind-of moved to see…

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Bri Scalesse: Someone there that looked like me. So, it's really important to have non-disabled people and… to have disabled people in your non-disabled audience.

Jillian Curwin: Yes. And I think, you know…I think in terms, like, seeing the power of an influencer, I think of… she's not disabled, she's curvy, Remi Bader. She is a queen.

Bri Scalesse: I love her!

Jillian Curwin: Love her!

Bri Scalesse: Oh my god.

Jillian Curwin: And she's at the shows, she's invited to the shows, and like, she just now like, does… She just, like, did her second collaboration with Revolve.

Bri Scalesse: Yes!

Jillian Curwin: And so she's working with these brands, and putting out clothes for curvier girls and like, seeing that representation, you know, she's just, just that representation of being invited to the show, what that does…

Bri Scalesse: Yeah.

Jillian Curwin: Like, it's powerful.

Bri Scalesse: Yeah. And like, making those changes too. Because I have friends who are plus size and… plus size models, and I remember, I think it was last year, one of my friends went to a show and she was like, it was so cool to be in the audience and you know, everyone was taking photos of us and that felt really like, you know, awesome. But then on the runway, there wasn't a single plus size person. And she was like, I wouldn't want to go back to that show because you have me in the audience, but I'm not good enough for your runway? So I think it has to be like a give and take.

Jillian Curwin: Yes.

Bri Scalesse: Like we need to be in both spaces, you know? But yeah, inviting people, like letting us in the door, that's so important.

Jillian Curwin: 150,000%. I think you need to see representation both on the runway. I would love to see more, you know, like and I, what am I…? Behind the scenes as well like, see disabled designers…

Bri Scalesse: Yeah.

Jillian Curwin: Because there are disabled designers out there designing clothes. Give them a chance to show at Fashion Week… and not give them the chance. Like, let them have a show like…have them be a part of Fashion Week as well, but also see disabled people in the audience. Because I think if you only put them on the runway, I think it kind of… It's not… We're not like, it's great ,and it's…

Bri Scalesse: Like for show, as you said. Like, it's like… But it's like, oh, we did this type thing.

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Bri Scalesse: It's like, work to make every part of your brand truly inclusive.

Jillian Curwin: Part of the industry truly inclusive.

Bri Scalesse: Yeah. Yeah. 

Jillian Curwin: Oh, we're hopefully… we're getting there. And I know like the… I think Milan Fashion Week is going on right now and…

Bri Scalesse: Yeah, I saw that.

Jillian Curwin: We'll see what their runways look like. I'm very excited.

Bri Scalesse: I think Aaron is there. I'm pretty sure. So I'm really hoping that Aaron is on a runway. I saw that, like, Aaron touched down in Milan or, or something like that. So, really hoping that she's on a runway. So, we'll see. Fingers crossed.

Jillian Curwin: Fingers crossed. We'll see.

But yeah, I think it's not… and it's not just in the US that we need to see it. It's… Fashion Weeks happen across the globe now. Like, we need this disabled representation, and again we're making strides, but there's still a long, long way to go.

Bri Scalesse: No, for sure. I think that's the thing is like, I think there's… I don't even know how many shows are hosted. It's over 200.

Jillian Curwin: Mmmhmm.

Bri Scalesse: But it's, it's a much larger number than that for New York Fashion Week. And as far as I know…I'm sure there were more that I just didn't see. But as far as I know, there was four or five shows that included disabled people. So five out of hundreds? Like, no, that's not acceptable. You know?

Jillian Curwin: That’s single digit, low single digit percentage.

Bri Scalesse: Yeah.

Jillian Curwin: That’s not okay. And like and… If that was in regards… You know, that's not okay for any type of minority representation. That percentage is just, it's not acceptable.

Bri Scalesse: Yeah. Six! Six. Sorry. I just thought of an extra because I know that Aaron did two, but…

Jillian Curwin: Okay.

Bri Scalesse: Still, six out of hundreds is, is abysmal, especially like, with one in four Americans being disabled. So like, that's crazy.

Jillian Curwin: Right, so I'm going to… Let's assume that there are 200 shows for New York Fashion Week. I'm going to put that number. So…

Bri Scalesse: Yeah, we’ll say I think it's more. I think it's more now, but…

Jillian Curwin: Should we say 250?

Bri Scalesse: Yeah. Sure.

Jillian Curwin: Alright. We're gonna say 250. So six shows. 2.4% of the runway shows in New York Fashion Week, by your estimate, had disabled representation. Disabled people are the world's largest minority. We are, you know, one in four people is disabled. That is…Those numbers are not good, like, in terms of representation. That… represent that… 2.4%.

Bri Scalesse: And that is hands down, as far as I know, the highest percentage that I've ever seen for a New York Fashion Week.

Jillian Curwin: Yes.

Bri Scalesse: So, this past Fashion Week was at the highest end of representation. So that's crazy.

Jillian Curwin: Mmmhmm. So fashion industry, if you're listening, and especially those brands who say that they have been listening and are working on it, like, recognizing that does take time… But I feel like there's a lot more that could be happening right now that just isn't.

Bri Scalesse: I agree. A lot, a lot more.

Jillian Curwin: You know, you know, these designers are already working on their fall collections.

Bri Scalesse: Yeah. No, for sure. It's already, definitely already in motion for the next Fashion Week.

Jillian Curwin: So, if anyone in the industry is listening…

Bri Scalesse: Yeah. Yeah.

Jillian Curwin: Put Bri in all your shows.

Bri Scalesse: Yeah. Put someone disabled in your shows. Anyone.

Jillian Curwin: I mean I have to believe it'll happen.

Bri Scalesse: Yeah.

Jillian Curwin: But like… obviously there's a part of me that wants it to happen just right now. But I mean, like…

Bri Scalesse: Right.

Jillian Curwin: We can’t say that we're being more inclusive and more diverse if we're still leaving out disabled people.

Bri Scalesse: No, for sure. And like, it is not that difficult to include people.

Jillian Curwin: No!

Bri Scalesse: It's like, that's, I think why I was so exhausted and frustrated at the end of most Fashion…at the beginning and end of most Fashion Weeks. It's just, like, painful to not see representation again and again and again.

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Bri Scalesse: So, yeah.

Jillian Curwin: And I feel like, especially because again, they're not designing adaptive wear… And I'll say this to kind of demonstrate the fact that like, Project Runway, the season you were on, right before, before your episode, before the finale, they challenged the designers to design for Paralympians. And I think they might have been given two days. They could have been given one. And they were able to do it.

Bri Scalesse: Yeah.

Jillian Curwin: Like so… in two days at max. They were able to do it. 

Bri Scalesse: No, for sure. I've seen people adapt for me very quickly, whether it's on a set or wherever it may be. Like it's possible. For sure.

Jillian Curwin: Right. So… like, I'm almost like seeing that, at the same time while recognizing that it does take time, I also wonder like, what then, you know…It's possible though, at the same time, to do it fast, to be able to and like with you, like…

Bri Scalesse: Yeah.

Jillian Curwin: To get you in a clo… in an outfit that maybe wasn't designed for a wheelchair user to wear, and have you work it on the runway.

Bri Scalesse: Yeah, I think it's the, the shift of like, mindset that takes more time…

Jillian Curwin: Yeah.

Bri Scalesse: Than the actual, like, making the clothes. Like, designers are incredible. They can make clothes, and they have incredible seamstresses, they can make clothes really fast. But it's more about, you know, the, the mindset shift that's going to take longer.

Jillian Curwin: Come on, if you're listening people, make it happen.

Bri Scalesse: I think there's a fear of disability, A. And then I think B, like designers are afraid that people are just going to think they put a disabled person on their runway for the clout. But, I think the brands who know, know that that's not true. It's just about putting good, powerful models on your runway and representing what the world actually looks like.

Jillian Curwin: Right. When you say there's a fear of disability, that seems like, when you said that was a little more nonspecific. What did you mean by that?

Bri Scalesse: I think in general, like, people are afraid, more than they're afraid of disabled people, I think a lot of people are afraid of becoming disabled themselves. And so there's this discomfort. Some, like, people can become disabled at any time.

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Bri Scalesse: And I think that there's not a lot of cultural narrative about what it is truly like to be disabled. And I've seen this particularly in the spinal cord injury community where people are like, when I first got injured I was so afraid of being a wheelchair user and what that would mean for my life. And I thought my life was over. And then I realized like, my life wasn't over. Like…and I have this beautiful life now. But, because there's no representation of what a life is like for someone who is a wheelchair user, in so many cases, like they just didn't know. They didn't know what that would look like.

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Bri Scalesse: So, I think that there's this fear of disability because we just like, don't talk about it enough and because it's like, hidden away. And for so long it was hidden away. So I think that is the thing, like people are afraid of what they don't understand.

Jillian Curwin: Right. And I think there's still this unwillingness to understand. You know, there was a time I… Looking at it, it happened like… I guess the repeal of these laws happened, I guess after the Rehabilitation Act in ‘73. But there were Ugly Laws…

Bri Scalesse: Yeah.

Jillian Curwin: Which kind of said if you were a dis-, like you were disabled…

Bri Scalesse: You couldn’t be in public.

Jillian Curwin: Yeah, it was…that was very general. Like if you were disabled, you weren't allowed to be seen in public. Umm, so…you know, that was… And they didn't start getting repealed till 1973, until after the Rehabilitation Act.

Bri Scalesse: Right.

Jillian Curwin: So basically after everything that happened…

Bri Scalesse: Yeah.

Jillian Curwin: You know, what Crip Camp is about. Like, that's not that far back.

Bri Scalesse: It was not that long ago now.

Jillian Curwin: No.

Bri Scalesse: So like, when you think about, as I said, the cultural narrative about disability like, there are many, many people still alive who, you know, were around… I mean like a good portion of the population was born before ‘73, who were around during the time that these laws were in place.

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Bri Scalesse: And that's wild. Like, there is just such a deep misunderstanding and like, I've just seen from personal interactions the way that someone's entire thought about disability shifts when they meet me, or they meet my friends, or they meet people in my community. Like, people's minds don't take very long to shift about disability once they actually interact with a disabled person. But a lot of people just haven't.

Jillian Curwin: Exactly. And I think, you know, and it's that… you know… I think society kind of has to recognize this and, again, now, especially with the ADA that Ugly Laws can't necessarily come back…

Bri Scalesse: Yeah.

Jillian Curwin: But there still are some court standings that hold, you know, I'm thinking of Buck v. Bell…

Bri Scalesse: Yeah.

Jillian Curwin: Which is about sterilization of intellectually disabled individuals. So like, I think, and this is a long way to go for this, and I recognize that, but like you said like, there is still this fear that non-disabled people have to get over - that disability isn't scary. I understand that, you… No one is going to grow up, who is non-disabled, to say I hope I become disabled one day. I get that.

Bri Scalesse: Yeah.

Jillian Curwin: But there's still, that doesn't mean that's necessarily… You don't have to fear disabled people.

Bri Scalesse: Yeah. And also, I think it's kind of accepting that disability is a part of life, that aging is a part of life, that death is a part of life. I think, and we even see this, and I've talked to a lot of older women, who just feel like invisible over time. And like, ageism is still such a real thing. Like, I think our culture is just really afraid of what it means to grow old, whether that's disability or age or death, and these are just all really natural parts of life. And I think, like, our culture fights so hard, whether it's the beauty industry, the fashion industry, the film and TV industry, to fight against that idea that like, these things are just natural.

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Bri Scalesse: And we sell this like youth, young culture versus like, the real true beauty of like, experiencing and like going through life.

Jillian Curwin: Exactly. Just imagine what it would…where we would be as a society if we actually embraced these concepts of growing old, of disability is not something that is such a negative impact on life.

Bri Scalesse: Yeah.

Jillian Curwin: Like I feel like as a society we would probably be farther along.

Bri Scalesse: For sure.

Jillian Curwin: More accepting of people's differences.

Bri Scalesse: More empathetic, like, yeah.

Jillian Curwin: One day. Agirl could dream.

Bri Scalesse: Yeah, same

Jillian Curwin: The girl can dream.

Bri Scalesse: I have to. I have to stay hopeful

Jillian Curwin: Yeah, we have to.

I know I asked you this last time you were on, but I do want, you know, if I, and I don't know what your answer was last time, but I do want to know again, who do you look up to?

Bri Scalesse: I don't know what my answer was last time either. But I assume it was similar. I mean, the community in general. It's actually funny. A lot of the people that are younger than me in our community, whose view on disability is so, so, so powerful and who are so empowered by their bodies and their disability, I look up to them. I look up to the women who raised me to be the person I am. I look up to my friends in the community, the disabled people that surround me who are just, like, living their most badass life.

And then I look up to the disabled models in the industry around me as well, because it is hard, and it is not an industry to be a part… not an easy industry to be a part of, as a disabled person. And so like I look up to Aaron and Jillian [Mercado] and Julian, really just pushing to be a part of the space. That's not an easy, an easy space to be a part of. I don't know. There's so many beautiful, beautiful humans that surround me that I look up to. I'm really, really grateful and really lucky.

Jillian Curwin: Love that.

Are there any questions I have not asked that you would like to answer?

Bri Scalesse: I don't think so.

Jillian Curwin: Okay! You can say that. That's, that's an acceptable answer.

Um, I hinted at it that people should follow you. Where can people do so?

Bri Scalesse: Yeah, it's really easy. It's Bri, B-R-I, Scalesse, S-C-A-L-E-S-S-E, on Instagram and TikTok, @briscalesse.

Jillian Curwin: Follow her there. I'll have links in the show notes so you can do that, and see her slay all the runways.

Bri, as always, it is a absolute pleasure talking with you, and I'm happy I got you back on the podcast. Finally. It's been way too long. So…and you have to come back again. Like, that wasn't a question.

Bri Scalesse: Yeah. I kind of like this yearly thing because I feel like I grow, you grow, we're growing.

Jillian Curwin: Okay.

Bri Scalesse: And, like, it's cool to see the changes each time and like, I'm sure that things will slightly change each time, which I think is very cool.

Jillian Curwin: So I can book you the week after Fashion Week next year?

Bri Scalesse: Yes. Yes.

Jillian Curwin: Okay. We’re booked. It's happening.

So we're going to play final fast favorites. And we did this last time. So I switched up the categories. So, if you want to hear her favorites that I usually ask, you're just going to have to, again, listen to her first episode. So, I have new categories for you and I just want to hear your favorite in each one.

Bri Scalesse: Okay. I'm scared.

Jillian Curwin: Favorite movie.

Bri Scalesse: Titanic or Slumdog Millionaire.

Jillian Curwin: I'll tell you something about Titanic later.

Favorite music artist.

Bri Scalesse: Lizzo.

Jillian Curwin: Yes. This one, this one you can say you decline to answer, but I really do want to know who is your favorite fashion designer?

Bri Scalesse: I don't know if I have an answer. I really, really loved Alexander McQueen's shows…

Jillian Curwin: Yes.

Bri Scalesse: When he was alive. And now they're still gorgeous, and beautiful, and I would love to model for the brand, but I think particularly it was really special and powerful when he was alive.

Jillian Curwin: Yes.

Bri Scalesse: So aesthetically obsessed with Alexander McQueen. But I think… not one specific, you know, high fashion designer comes to mind when I think of someone who's like fully, fully doing it correctly for disabled people. But there's a lot of small designers who are absolutely incredible that we love and know.

Jillian Curwin: Yes.

Bri Scalesse: Yeah.

Jillian Curwin: So we're going to will this into existence that you are going to wheel in an Alexander McQueen show and Lucy Jones and I are going to sit front row and be the most ecstatic people in the audience.

Bri Scalesse: Yes.

Jillian Curwin: It's going to happen.

Bri Scalesse: That’s the dream.

Jillian Curwin: We’re manifest… we're going to manifest that.

Bri Scalesse: I love that.

Jillian Curwin: Lucy if you’re listening, we’re manifesting this.

Vacation destination?

Bri Scalesse: Ooh, I, I love cities. So any big city. I love exploring big cities. I love living in a big city. Tokyo and London have a big piece of my heart. But also like, Rome, Barcelona. Oh, my God Barcelona is so accessible. Barcelona. I'm going to say Barcelona. It's so accessible.

Jillian Curwin: Okay, final answer Barcelona. We're going with that. For its accessibility we'll give it…

Bri Scalesse: Yeah, it deserves it.

Jillian Curwin: Okay.

Last one, quote to live by.

Bri Scalesse: Oh my God. Quote to live by?

My grandma says a quote often that I always thought was really bleak growing up. But now I kind of see it and understand it and it's, “Happy moments are happy because they’re moments,” and I think there's probably a more uplifting version of that quote. But it's like not every moment can be happy. And like in the happy moments, you're able to celebrate them and to, like, rejoice in them because it is a moment and like, it's okay and it's important to go through the other moments that aren't happy and like those are a part of life. Just like disability, just like aging, just like death. You know, there's so many different parts of life and like we should embrace and accept them all.

So I think that's really important because like, I think when I was younger, I was just like, chasing constant happiness…

Jillian Curwin: Yeah.

Bri Scalesse: And that's just not a reality. You can wake up with joy and with good intentions for the day, but to know like, it's okay if something's hard, it's okay if you cry. It's okay to feel all the things. Yeah.

Jillian Curwin: Perfect note to end on.

Thank you again so much, Bri, for coming on for talking with me… on the podcast. Not that we're not going to be talking right after this.

Bri Scalesse: Never again.

Jillian Curwin: Never again. This time next year…

Bri Scalesse: Next year!

Jillian Curwin: Will be the next time I talk to you. [Laughter]

The final, final, final thing I have to ask is for you to remind my listeners in your most badass voice possible that height is just a number, not a limit

Bri Scalesse: Height is just a number, not a limit.

Jillian Curwin: Always Looking Up is hosted by Jillian Curwin and edited and produced by Ben Curwin. Please make sure to rate, review, and subscribe, and follow on Spotify so that you never miss an episode. Follow me on Instagram @jill_ilana and the podcast @alwayslookingup.podcast for updates and check out my blog JillianIlana.com for more content about what it is like to be a little person in an average sized world.

Thanks for listening. See you next week.

Learn More:

Listen to Bri’s first episode HERE

Follow Bri

Instagram: @briscalesse

TikTok: @briscalesse