Jillian IlanaOctober 17, 2022Comment

Dr. Ben Barry On What We Are Teaching The Future Of Fashion

Jillian IlanaOctober 17, 2022Comment

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Jillian Curwin: Hi everyone. Welcome to Always Looking Up, the podcast where no one is overlooked and high is only a number, never a limit, hosted by me, Jillian Curwin. Each week I'll be having a conversation about what it is like to live in a world that is not necessarily designed for you.

In this week's episode, I sat down with Dr. Ben Barry. Ben is the Dean of Fashion at Parsons School of Design, a disability fashion activist, and researcher. He is currently leading the project Crippling Masculinity, that explores how d/Deaf, disabled and non-divergent men and masculine people experience the world and make new worlds through fashion. We discuss the different approaches towards making fashion accessible for the disabled community, the importance of interdependence in fashion, and what the future of fashion is learning today.

Let's get into it.

Hi, Ben.

Dr. Ben Barry: Hi.

Jillian Curwin: How are you?

Dr. Ben Barry: I'm really good. It's week four and a new semester, and the energy, and excitement, and joy on campus is contagious. I am just, I'm living for it.

Jillian Curwin: I love that, and you're going to tell us all about it.And Why don't you start by, doing that by telling my listeners a little bit about who you are. Introduce yourself.

Dr. Ben Barry: Yeah, I, my name is Ben Barry. I use he/him pronouns. I am a queer, white, disabled person with low vision, I am a cisgender man, and I am in my late thirties. I'm currently Dean of Fashion at Parsons School of Design in New York, where I get to teach and work with incredible faculty, staff and students.

Jillian Curwin: There's so much I want to get into with that, with just Parsons. I grew up watching Project Runway, so Parsons is like a very iconic location in New York for me. So we're going to get into that and so much more. But I want to ask you, how do you define being disabled?

Dr. Ben Barry: I love that question, and I know you ask that to so many of your guests. And I think for me, I define being disabled as a journey, as a journey, as something that I didn't fully embrace when I first started to lose vision, and that I tried to cover up and tried to hide. And then coming into disability community, meeting other disabled folks, I started to take great pride and even joy and pleasure in being disabled and the world that it brought to me and the brilliance that the disabled community has always created. So for me disability is a journey, and a journey that looks different for different folks, but one that really is about wisdom, community, and incredible creativity.

Jillian Curwin: I love that you called it a journey because I think that is so true. And I think it's just a journey, not just defining it, but also just coming to terms with identifying as an… even for someone like me who was born a little person, I didn't necessarily say I was disabled for quite some time. And it really took me coming to New York City, meeting people who were not little people who had different disabilities to my own, to really be like come to terms and embrace it. And it has been an incredible journey. And like you said, this community is absolutely brilliant. The… I think disabled people are the most innovative, resourceful people on the planet because we really have to be in order to live our lives. So then finding that community has just been another step and like, I don't know where this journey is taking me.

And I think that's kind of also part of it, that you don't know where we're going in this journey of like being disabled.

Dr. Ben Barry: Completely. I think that's, that's beautifully said, particularly because so much of life and, you know, dominant stories have been that disability is a place of no future…

Jillian Curwin: Mmmhmm.

Dr. Ben Barry: Narratives of shame and tragedy that have been constructed for us. But I think when we're in community, we learn that you can hold pain and oppression along with joy and creativity and brilliance. And I think it's being in community that allows us to navigate that path. And yes, see that incredible just joy and creativity that disability can bring. And so, yeah, it is a journey and I think the journey is different for everyone and we don't know where it's going to go in the future.

Jillian Curwin: Mmmhmm.

Dr. Ben Barry: Because so much is focusing on the present and today. But I think it's in that community that we can always look towards tomorrow, whatever that will be.

Jillian Curwin: Right. And I think there's also this understanding that we recognize, and it's maybe not something that people recognize until they're part of it, that it is a group that anyone can join. And so we are really, like, coming together. Like every journey is unique and every journey is very different, but we all do come together and support one another in this really beautiful way that I don't, you know, I wish I discovered sooner.

Dr. Ben Barry: Completely. And I think so much as the world, right, has not been designed to support, certainly not cultivate disability.

Jillian Curwin: Mmmhmm.

Dr. Ben Barry: And that, I think, for so many people because of that, because there's been so much exclusion and stigma and oppression, that claiming disability can be, you know, a different journey for each person. So many of us have grown up in places where the narrative of overcoming disability has been so present, where we have been told that we need to work double as hard to be as, quote, productive, as non-disabled folks, to show we can do the same thing in the same way when really all bodies are…All body minds are different, are unique…

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Dr. Ben Barry: And I think when we start to recognize what access looks like for ourselves and for each other, we just realize that we can do things our own ways. And that's truly a gift because we have our own perspective in ways in which we occupy space in the world and engage with the world.

Jillian Curwin: Exactly. And speaking of design, I mean, you work in an industry that takes pride on being very exclusive and is, you know, that's like…Where you succeed where you are exclusive, where it's taken so long to break down these barriers and to let other people in. But yet it is an industry that affects everyone. We all get dressed every day, you know. So it's so interesting. And I think that fashion is a place where disability, it’s coming, but it's still not there yet in terms of like being accepted, being seen as beautiful the way we see being disabled as being beautiful.

Dr. Ben Barry: Completely, I think…Well, first, I think to immediately kind of position… I love fashion, I love getting dressed, I love clothing by way of like, visual description for listeners, I'm white. I have short brown hair. I'm wearing sort-of two necklaces, one by this incredible artist, Warren Steven Scott, who's an indigenous artist in Toronto, another I found at the Chelsea Flea, and a top with kind of graffiti on it. And I have this like, kind-of turquoise nail polish on.

Jillian Curwin: Mmmhmm.

Dr. Ben Barry: So fashion for me has always been like kind-of pure joy. At the beginning I really was so focused on the visual of fashion, which I think is the sense that has been prioritized. How does it look, not just to ourselves but to others? How we present ourselves? And I think as I started to… as my vision changed, there's so many other aspects of fashion, I started to appreciate so much more. Right. I became so attuned with how clothing felt on my body, whether I sat, whether I moved, rather than maybe the shimmer of like sequins and the cascading effect they would give, the ways in which they would feel against my hands as I moved up and down, as they moved them up and down.

And so one of the things I think about fashion is that it is this incredible way for us to engage in a multi-sensory experience, for us to occupy space in the world. But fashion has not been a space that has centered, valued, disabled people in truly authentic and like, equitable ways. Whether we're talking about representation, whether we're talking about clothing and design, whether we're talking about jobs and pipelines to success in the industry. Of course, that doesn't mean that disabled people have been engaged with fashion. Right?

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Dr. Ben Barry: Like some of the most brilliant fashion hacks have been by disabled people who have been like, this clothing doesn't work for my body. I'm going to learn and I'm going to figure out how to hack into it, to change it, to reconstruct it, and make it work for me.

Jillian Curwin: Mmmhmm.

Dr. Ben Barry: And some of the best design brilliance is from disability community. But fashion as a system or an industry has certainly not centered disabled people. I think what we've seen is slow increase in maybe the representation of disabled people as models, but often that that's done as like a spectacle. It's done as a stand in for a brand to say “Oh look, we’re inclusive,” right? In this very tokenistic way. And that hasn’t often… And it's been in many ways in opposition to non-disability.

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Dr. Ben Barry: So we have a disabled model just to show, and they're presented in a way that is like this opposition, or this binary, and it obviously creates a visual presence. I mean that certainly slowly does work. But then if we kind of go off the runway, or we go behind the pages of a magazine, what does the rest of the industry look like? Where are the rest of disabled folks as creatives? As business folks? As people really making the day to day decisions?

Jillian Curwin: Right. I think disability, in terms of representation, is not, should not just be focused on just the models. It is also seeing the designers and seeing people just being invited to these shows. You know, there are… I talked to someone about this recently like, there are some incredible, powerful disabled influencers in fashion who aren't models, but they're not getting invited to these shows and sitting in the front row the way we see other influencers are. And I think it's so important to not limit where we see disability to just the models. I think the models are obviously the most visible part of fashion because they're wearing the clothes on the runway, they're wearing the clothes in the editorials. And even there we're still seeing it and it's like they'll be one, which one is fantastic, we want that representation, or it'll be something separate from the actual like Fashion Week, which is… you could see that in a positive or a negative way. I would rather see these fabulous disabled models actually be a part of like the official Fashion Week schedule in those shows, walking or wheeling alongside non-disabled models, the way that, you know, that’s how it should be.

Dr. Ben Barry: Completely. I mean, it is this truly authentic incorporation into every element of fashion, rather this like, separate show or something outside of Fashion Week or…right? It doesn't mean those events and those publications and experiences shouldn't happen.

Jillian Curwin: Mmmhmm.

Dr. Ben Barry: They absolutely should. But there also needs to be…what does it mean to actually transform them, the dominant industry, so disabled people are very present and very there. And I mean, that really requires, I think, a deep questioning of the ways in which ableism has structured the fashion industry. Right? From how was like… just, as we look at the design of clothing, the design of a clothing show, right? What bodies and minds are welcome in those space[s]? Whose access needs are centered and whose aren’t?

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Dr. Ben Barry: Whether you are a guest, whether you're a model, whether you're in the industry, whatever that is, right? These spaces are often not hospitable spaces for disabled folks. And often part of it is because one of the things I think about are are there disabled people on the team, right?

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Dr. Ben Barry: In PR, in production, in the design, that are actually thinking about, well, what are the access needs? And it's not that this is just solely the responsibility of disabled folks.

Jillian Curwin: Mmmhmm.

Dr. Ben Barry: But I think that disabled folks, particularly disabled folks who are, you know, with their own experiences, disabled folks who work in just like, who are with disability community, really are thinking about this, and in ways that can start to expose a lot of the design of these events and the design fashion.

Jillian Curwin: Right. Like I think, and they're also going to…They're aware. Like, they know what the issues and they're not going to be afraid to call it out because the access needs in fashion are not just limited to fashion, it really does impact our whole life. So we know, we're aware of what is needed. And again, like you said like, it's not just the models. It's seeing these creatives bring in other creatives who are disabled and having them say, what do we need? And I think, and you can correct me if I’m wrong, I'm wondering, like I feel like it shouldn't necessarily be just like, if we're not doing adaptive fashion, then we don't need to include disability. And I feel like that that's a misconception. That is why some… a lot of the shows in like the Fashion Week schedule aren’t including disability because they’re like, well, we don't do adaptive fashion, where they're not thinking of like, well, a lot of clothes aren't adaptive, but we still get dressed every day and we make alterations. I've seen Project Runway, I've seen them make alterations at the last second right before a model goes down the runway. So it's not necessarily about designing specifically for a disabled body. It's just about taking what you've designed and making it fit for a disabled body and bringing that inclusion in the way you would for a different… model of different size of model, different sexuality, ethnicity. Like I feel like it's not being considered with disability in the same way that they're making considerations with designing for other types of bodies.

Dr. Ben Barry: I think so much of my perspective in thinking about disability in design has come from, I think, being in disability community, learning about disability studies, and thinking about what I've learned from activists in disability justice and… from what would you call like Crip Scholars, who reclaim that word as a pejorative, as an affirmation, and very much how do we desire disability? How do we open up with desire for everything disability brings? And it's really guided a lot of my own teaching and research and our conversation’s reminding me of a course I taught a few years ago where the students, we worked to design a fashion show that centered access, and part of the goal of the class was not to say let's take a, I'm going to say non-disability fashion show, a fashion show that limits access and add access. But what would happen if we began as access, with access as the starting point of a fashion show design? What would that do? How would that beautifully expand what a fashion show is like? And so we worked, the students worked with the disability community and allies, worked with disability consultants who had both professional and lived experiences. And we created a show and it was beautiful because there was no, like, elevated runway. Everything was on the same level. There was sort of this T-shaped, but it was big enough for people to move and wheel about. There were not spotlights on the runway, but all the lights were on. Folks were welcome to move and vocalize freely. There was a chill zone for people could go, to kind of not had intense stimulation during the show, but the show would also be streamed there in addition to obviously like ASL and audio description.

But it was really imagining like, how access is an opening for creativity and new forms of design versus something that is about compliance or purely functional access to access. And so so much of the work in my thinking now is disability as an opening, as an extension session of creativity in design in ways that would never even be dreamed of if we're only thinking in kind of a non-disabled or ableist like kind of frame.

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Dr. Ben Barry: And it was a beautiful, beautiful experience because it infinitely reimagined what a fashion show could be and expanded it in so many new creative ways.

Jillian Curwin: I love that. I wish I got to see that show because that sounds absolutely brilliant. And again like, it's all about that access and it's not, you know, we've seen fashion change the game so many times, and I think that's kind of like what you're saying. It's like, we can do this, we can completely break all the rules because in fashion is one that says, you know, there really are no rules although…yeah, there, there are, but there aren't at the same time. But if we actually say, you know, screw it, let's just make this accessible and let's focus on access first and then we can still put on a show, and let's see what it turns out to be. And I feel like there's not the…The industry at large is not willing to take that chance and, seeing what happened, and they would rather they would rather just be separate, rather keep it out of the… I don't think there’re tents anymore, but like keep it out of, like, the official Fashion Week and, you know, that way if it's not there, if it's not a part of it, then we don't have to talk about it. It's not going to get discussed.

Dr. Ben Barry: Yeah, I mean, that's so, been so much of, so much of the thinking, right, has really been that… And I think in many ways there's also been just not, just like a cultural exclusion of disability from dominant fashion, but a very much physical exclusion because if a space is not accessible, disabled people can't, like, enter them and inhabit them and occupy them.

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Dr. Ben Barry: And if they did, so much effort and work on the part of disability community to do that, because that space that's it's not being designed from that place. And I think so much of like then… the wave of movement in design, in fashion and disability is thinking, and it's really moving… I mean, I think adaptive fashion and when we think of adapting, I think that is like, that is the beginning of the conversation. But so much of my thought is by adapting something that is designed for a non-disabled person, whether it's a space or a garment. I mean, symbolically, in one way, it almost keeps like a hierarchy in place where the starting place is always non-disability and then you have to adapt for the disabled person, or, like the plus-size person or fat person that that's always like an addition or alteration or like expansion of the house.

Jillian Curwin: Mmmhmm.

Dr. Ben Barry: But what actually happens when we design from a place of access and disability as the starting point, and yes, obviously not just as a social justice perspective to be more inclusive, but also how does that dramatically expand the creativity of what fashion is? And I think about like, again, this desire for disability. And then when we start of a place of access and disability, how does that introduce new aesthetics, new silhouettes, aesthetics that don't prioritize the visual only, but that are multi-sensory? How does that create entirely new ways of imagining, whether it's fashion shows or clothing and accessories, that without desiring disability from the starting place, if design would never have been conceptualized or thought about, and that in some of the teaching I do around like disability and fashion, that's really my starting place with students is how do we start from this perspective? An array of bodies when we design as a way to really center access is the place, the starting place, and how does that unleash completely new forms of creativity?

Jillian Curwin: I never thought of it that way. And like, you know, I literally just said like before that, like instead of just saying, if we don't do adaptive wear that you can still like then alter like I… that just… I need a minute with that one because like my thinking it was just like we… clothes are not going to fit the models that are getting designed [for] anyway. They're always making alterations. So why aren’t they then making alterations and saying, let me see a disabled model in this? And I think like… let me like… I'm phrasing that wrong. Sorry. Like, you know, when they make a clothes, they always have to alter it before it goes on the runway to fit whoever's wearing it. Why can't they bring that mentality to disability? Iinstead of saying, “Well, I don't do adaptive. This wasn't designed for a disabled body, so it's not going to go on a disabled body,” like they're making that decision. And again, like you said, like unleashing the creativity to say, let's see what it looks like on a disabled body. Let's make it, you know, to quote Tim Gunn, “Let's make it work.” Like imagine.

And then bringing disability in and bringing disabled creatives in to say this is how you alter it, this is how you change it, and then say, okay, now can we design the garments, f we're going to go kind of like what from the other perspective of then how do we then take the garments are we normally designed, and this is how we normally do it, and adapt it so it can fit a wheelchair user, so can fit someone with a limb difference, so it has the right fabrics for someone with sensory needs, so it can fit a little person? Like if…because I feel like I… what… your idea like, like, we're not there yet and so like, with the other designers and like how do we get them to go from where they are now to where we want them to be? Which is to just start with access, because I feel like we kind of would have to work backwards to get there, if that makes sense.

Dr. Ben Barry: Yeah. And I mean, I think the adaptive, I mean… I think first of all, I think like we have been, I think taught, told, I mean in many ways by the industry that the… that access is about adapting current culture to invite disability in, to welcome disability in. But by welcoming us in it's always on the terms of, say, non-disabled culture, community.

Jillian Curwin: Yes.

Dr. Ben Barry: And certainly that is one approach, an important one. But I think, at the same time, what happens when we also start from the place of disability. And I think that like, so much of the incredible work of disability justice and like brown and black activists in disability justice, disabled activists, queer and trans activists who have like…What happens when we start with disability as the center and build from there? And I think that that from a design perspective can unleash so much, and maybe both happened, as you said, simultaneously. Right. Change happens in, you know, so many nuanced and important ways. But I think in the work I've done, it is like what happens when we start with access…

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Dr. Ben Barry: And disabled mind bodies is a starting place and we're like, we're not going to adapt. We're not going to…You’ve designed this for a non disabled person, great. Right? We can adapt and we can have access. But what actually happens if we tried something else and we don't just expand this one way of doing things, but we build a new house.

Jillian Curwin: Yeah.

Dr. Ben Barry: And we actually start from the place of disability. And from the work I've seen it's like, oh my goodness, all the creativity, all the new ideas, all the new ways of experiencing fashion, engaging with fashion that can open up is possible. And I think for so many, like disabled folks, it's like, yes, we've been doing this our entire life in order to work, you know, in, in the world that's not designed for us. We've had to design, re-design, re-re-design with us at the center and building up. And I think that that offers a new approach and for the fashion industry that hasn’t incorporated this.

Yeah. So that's a bit so much of my thinking and I think so much is just really valuable. Really it's about, again, like this desire that disability bring,s and that's changing a much larger story that fashion hasn't taught us, right?

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Dr. Ben Barry: It hasn’t taught us to desire disability experiences, disabled bodies, and minds. And I think that of that… that can shift the entire narrative.

Jillian Curwin: Right. And maybe I wasn't phrasing this, and maybe I had to figure… I had to figure out how to phrase this like, I want to, I want the industry to get to where you are, where you're saying that we start with access and go from there. I don't think, I think there are some designers who at least want to but maybe don't have the means to. But I think the industry as a whole, and this is kind of like just seeing where fashion, what Fashion Week looked like in terms of what we saw on the runways. I feel like they're not there yet. So how do we… And I feel like they're saying, well, we can't do that. Like this is how we've been doing it.

So then what do you say to these designers, particularly the ones who are celebrated for being inclusive but yet don't have disabled models on their runway and aren't adapting their clothes for a runway show and aren't bringing disability in, how do you get them to that place to from where they are now in their design and how they design to get them to say, let's start with access when creating a collection, when starting… when curating a show.

Dr. Ben Barry: I think so much of a starting place for me I can… I think for me there's sort of two starting places. I mean one, first and foremost, is I think fashion schools have a tremendous responsibility in not just what comes sort of down the runway, but in everything that fashion is because the world views, the practices of generations and the next generations of fashion creatives and business people, are cultivated in school. And so in school if we are one, not cultivating access as a starting point, if we're not teaching about disability studies and we're not talking about intersectionality, we're not talking about social justice and fashion and making that foundational in the curriculum, not a special elective, but foundational. So every fashion student learns to create business models and plans, design clothing and accessories that really do center the needs of a variety of body minds. Then I think fashion schools in many ways are one, failing the diversity of people. But we're never going to get to the starting point, to that place of starting with access…

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Dr. Ben Barry: Unless it’s taught in school. So I think schools have an important place both in terms of teaching, particularly nondisabled students, but also then of creating pipelines for disabled students to be successful in fashion school, with all their accesses, access needs met, not as a special request, but as foundational. So we also have generations, hopefully, of disabled students graduating and going out into the fashion world with that education, with those degrees and moving into the systems. I think fashion schools are critical to cultivate that future.

I also think for brands, I think that so much as yes, it might begin with, you know, an adaptive… a collection or like a model on the runway. But I think so much is the deeper cultural work of like, do you have disabled employees working in your organization? How do you offer access for your designers for HR? For finance? For the different, you know, the different players? And how can you cultivate a strong presence of disabled people, with all their access needs met, that they can then contribute to the organization as well, and provide that support?

I think so much of the lack of maybe disability representation, or more tokenistic efforts, or maybe a special adaptive capsule collection, while these are great starts, to really maybe move, might beyond that and kind of really have that paradigm shift. It is about changing that culture of not just how the organization thinks, but making sure there's pipelines for disabled employees to work in them within fashion. And that's when I think well fashion schools play a critical role…

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Dr. Ben Barry: Because this is a starting point. And so what is our role and our responsibility in creating those pipelines, and partnering with brands, and part of this larger cultural shift that needs to take place?

Jillian Curwin: Right. And you raise an interesting point with brands bringing disabled people in more behind the scenes and not just on the runway, of working with them and talking with them. And so I, I know that there are some brands, I won't name them, who are working with disabled consultants, and they've been working with them for years. And from my perspective as someone who's followed the industry, I'm not saying that I'm in the industry as… you know, I'm not like a full insider in the way that you are and the way that I've had some other models on. And, you know, I'm not… I'm, I'm a fan. But I'm not necessarily… it's been years, seeing whatever is being done. So I'm wondering like, how long like… is that realistic that we still aren't seeing these changes? Or are there more changes happening behind the scenes that like we're just really not… that are still not… are taking place behind the scenes and are not carrying over to the runways?

Dr. Ben Barry: I think that… What I've observed and witnessed in my time is that I think, in the past few years, there is absolutely change happening.

Jillian Curwin: Okay.

Dr. Ben Barry: I think there is a conversation around disability, and the importance of disability in fashion, the need for access, that's happening, that's happened in the past few years that hasn't happened before that. I think we are… like these conversations are conversations happening and I think it's an important step to then lead to the some… to lead to these changes. I think that because we are seeing… so much of this is structural change, it is slow. It does take time.

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Dr. Ben Barry: But I think that we're seeing the conversation happening, and there is work happening behind the scenes at many brands. I still think there's a long way to go and there's still a lot of work that needs to happen. But I think that change is happening. And I think that part of that is that so many disabled folks are taking a really active role in either partnering with brands, talking about fashion on social media, engaging as models, providing a range of kind of perspectives and advocacy, that is also pushing this conversation forward. I think thats, the other thing that's part of, with anything is that obviously disability is not a homogenous group. Right?

Jillian Curwin: No.

Dr. Ben Barry: Disability is so diverse, is so different. Right? And so many like… so how do we work across disability and recognizing the differences of experience, the different forms of like, you know, privilege and like marginalization for different disabled people based on, you know, so many other things. And how do we have those conversations? So I think that that is also part of the conversation happening with fashion. But I've seen much more, kind of say, mobilization from disabled folks in being like, we love fashion, we want fashion to change, and we're going to find different ways to do this. And also incredible non-disabled allies…

Jillian Curwin: Yes.

Dr. Ben Barry: Who have been playing an amazing role in also creating change. So I think there's this like, mobilization happening, there's this conversation happening, and I'm certainly feeling really optimistic and hopeful, even if maybe it's not on the runways yet, that the work is happening at a grassroots level. And the starting point is really start…is there.

Jillian Curwin: Okay. As someone who again is, I will say I'm on the outside looking in at the fashion industry, that is just good to hear because I know I like, seeing what people are doing or like hearing who they're working with, but yet I'm not seeing the results. So I just wanted to know, like, what is actually happening because, you know, clothing affects, we all get dressed and, you know, and I would love to be able to go buy a pair of jeans and just know that they're going to fit. I think that's still… we're not there yet. And you talked about like, disability being incredibly diverse, even disability communities. For me, the little person community in itself is incredibly diverse. And how…I, I don't know how you tackle figuring out how to design for the different types of dwarfism, let alone for the different types of disability. So I do, I'm recognizing that it does take time. I'm just wondering what is actually, again, as someone very much on the outside looking in, what is happening in the industry. So that, that like gave me… that made me feel better, hearing what you said.

Dr. Ben Barry: I mean, I'll say that we have a number of things that will be coming out at Parsons that I'm really excited about…

Jillian Curwin: Ooo.

Dr. Ben Barry: Both for students and coming up in curriculum that are giving, that are certainly giving me a lot of hope. And I think, I mean I think what I've learned is like two things. I think that I've learned so much. I think it's, for me, as like a Dean Of Fashion like, I recognized in many ways, like I'm a disabled person, but my disability is also in many ways invisible, as like a white man I have so much privilege. So how can I, right…? What access have I been given to enter spaces and be heard as a leader based on the body I inhabit? How can I use that to create change and then ensure that like, other folks who don't have my privilege can then, kind of, occupy those spaces and take over and make change. And so I'm… I think about that a lot. And then I also think about everything I’ve learned from disability justice and disability community, they can really work to create a more inclusive and equitable fashion industry. I think of like, the everyday practices of disability community that are about like, interdependence, and access, and things that like actually move us away from some of the harm that a purely like, masculine capitalist myth of independence like, world, and particularly fashion world, has taught us. And actually what happens when we value interdependence and teams and collaboration and design. Right?

Like how do we actually, it's not ever been one person, although we've held one person up and that’s put…

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Dr. Ben Barry: Incredible pressure on one designer disposed of all the knowledge. But actually…

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Dr. Ben Barry: What do we do when we value like, design pods, or interdependence, or collaboration, and celebrate a team, a group of folks doing it rather than elevating one person?

JIllian Curwin: Mmmhmm.

Dr. Ben Barry: How do we…? So, so I think that just my work, my practice in disability community, you know, as a disabled person, as an activist, through my continuous journey and learning, has also exposed me to ways of being that are part of being disabled that actually can transform the world, and particularly transforming the fashion industry to a field that is more open towards inclusion and social justice inequity. And so that's, I think, the other thing that's really a part of this is that so many of the everyday practices, from disability community, can actually change these fields and particularly change fashion.

Jillian Curwin: Can you give some examples? Because I'm just curious as someone, you know, again, like on the outside looking in, like when you say like the practices that we have. Like, what specifically practices do we use, do we follow, that really could help…could translate fashion and could really transform it?

Dr. Ben Barry: Yeah. I mean, one of the ones that I think jumps out to me, and I alluded to it a little bit, is really the value of like, interdependence. I think so many of the problems in fashion, I mean, for non-disabled people and disabled people, has been this like, myth of independence. And there's one creative director who has all the responsibility for collection per season. And even though there is a team…

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Dr. Ben Barry: It’s normally that one creative director that gets, right, paraded down the runway at the end of the show, that gets those features, whose name might be on the label. And that obviously puts…and in…one, it puts an incredible amount of pressure on one human.

Jillian Curwin: Mmmhmm.

Dr. Ben Barry: It also is impossible for one human to ever do all of that.

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Dr. Ben Barry: There’s always a whole team, but that team often doesn't get celebrated. And I think, right, so much of disability experience, for access, is about these mutual aid networks that get developed, around having really like… having support, whether it's friends and family, whether it's care workers, whoever it is, that there is this support system that exists, this true interdependence. And what happens when we value that interdependence in design, where we recognize that everyone on the team brings different knowledges and practices and experiences to the design. They all contribute. And what happens if we value and recognize that? Would that alleviate some of the intense pressure and anxiety that gets placed on one person? Would that move us away from not just a hierarchy in fashion design, or this belief that one person is a design genius?

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Dr. Ben Barry: That there is a, like, panorama of experiences that are all valued, and does that actually help us create more inclusion? Because if you have a diverse team and everyone's knowledge is valued and everyone is credited, there's more opportunities to share the array of lived experiences and knowledge when we design. And so, right, because I think it's sort of this myth of having to do everything independently that has, you know, it's, I don't know, possible for, certainly really possible for any…certainly, for anyone…

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Dr. Ben Barry: Whether you're disabled or not, and that's only caused harm. And so what happens if we collectively move around, move away from that? And certainly disability justice, the practice is really centered, this idea of interdependence, that's been such a core tenet. And so I think that that in many ways can also really shift how we think about design, and how we design, and who gets credited.

Jillian Curwin: Right. I agree with that. And I'm wondering because, you know, knowing that, like there is a creative director for all… like, all the fashion labels, all the luxury fashion labels I’m thinking of, there usually is this one visible person who is the creative director, who is credited as being like the creative behind the collections. And like, knowing that some of these creative directors are running fashion houses that were established, some before they were even alive, like they're carrying on the legacy of a designer who may no longer be with us. Do you think that there's, for those labels, like a hesitancy to kind of change their like… if they are bringing if they like… I'm not phrasing this right. Like to… If they start really changing how they're designing, that they're tarnishing the legacy, or they're not living up to the expectations of this label, do you think that there's like, a fear of doing that?

Dr. Ben Barry: I think there's always a fear of change. Because in many ways I think, especially in an industry, if we think what we're doing works, and whatever is making money, there's fear to changes. Because what happens if it doesn't work?

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Dr. Ben Barry: Or don't make the same amount of money? But I think there's the other perspective that the world, you know, things shift, there is a journey. And what about this perhaps untapped potential? Right?

Jillian Curwin: Mmmhmm.

Dr. Ben Barry: When we do start to shift things maybe more radically or dramatically. And I think that what is the untapped potential of moving from one creative director to really celebrating a collective and valuing collaboration? What new experiences it will bring? You know often when I, you know, when brands come in, we work together, we work with students, you know, collaboratively, and we talk about designing more inclusively. Often brands are saying, well, you know, that’s, that's not our market, or we tried it once and it didn't work, you know, so we're not going to do this again. And I always sort of think about that in two ways. It's like, okay, you've gotten your core market already.

Jillian Curwin: Mmmhmm.

Dr. Ben Barry: Like they're there, you design for them. But what about all of these other communities who right now you're not designing for? Like, from a purely business perspective, isn't there a way to expand and grow by meeting the needs of so many more people who aren't currently your wearers?

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Dr. Ben Barry: What would that look like?

And I think the second part is that they say, well, we tried it once. We did a capsule and it didn't work. We…obviously they don't want to be here. And I was like, “No, no, no, no.” Like, first of all, like, it's going to take…You've had how many years to build a relationship and trust with your current consumer. Right? For new markets you've alienated them, you've excluded them. It's going to take time to build that relationship. And so you can never evaluate based on kind of one or two capsules. But it's really how do we slowly build that relationship? And also, when we're doing those capsules like, who's designing it? Let's… are we really listening to feedback? Are we changing? Is the community in that part of the design team, right? Like, and are we open to learning from some of the mistakes we've made in changing them…

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Dr. Ben Barry: In the next iteration? So I think it is so much of recognizing that this is transformation, and it can be a slow process often, and not often like a quick result.

Jillian Curwin: Mmmhmm.

Dr. Ben Barry: And how do we do things in like, these slow, sustainable ways? But obviously that is… That's part of a conversation. And when brands do that, to break, to really target new wearers much more inclusively, the ones who do plan for the long term are the ones that really show a deep investment, and most importantly care for the communities and build that trust and relationship.

Jillian Curwin: Exactly. And I think, and you touched on something, and I know I… Some what inventor said like, something like, when something didn't work, it's like I didn't learn... Okay. Like I… yeah, I didn't fail. I just learned one way that doesn't work. So I still learned from it. And I, like…And it frustrates me when brands say, well I tried and people didn't show up. I tried and no one bought it. And it's like one, celebrate the fact that you tried and no, it didn't work. That doesn't mean you give up. It's like, okay, we learned a way that doesn't work. We learned that this… How we’re…. Our design process, something in our design process is flawed. Rather than saying, okay, give up on it, figure out a way to change it.Talk to the community, see…, to figure out what didn't work and listen to them. And then go back to the drawing board, to the sketching, to the sewing room and figure it out and keep that conversation going. Because we're ready. Like, we've been asking for this. So if you're showing that you're trying and you're making an effort, and I'm not… I'll speak for myself. I won't speak for the community at large. But like, if I see a brand that's going to try and it's going to say, like, I'll design for you. I'll say, absolutely, let me try and let's see if it's going to work. And if not, this is what I think didn't work. And let's see, can we fix this? But like don't give up and don't say, well, it didn't work. So we're like, why bother? Like, that frustrates me more than I almost…That frustrates, I think, me more than a brand is like not even going to try at all.

Dr. Ben Barry: I totally get that. I think the most important trait as a designer is humility, and it's recognizing that we don't know what we don't know. We'll never know everything. And how do we really recognize that our work as designers are centered on care for people? We're making garments that are going to cover their body, that are going to make them feel, hopefully, themselves, that are going to help them move through the world, and we don't know everything, we never will, about other people's bodies and experiences. So how can we learn? And even if I am a disabled designer with low vision, designing for you, we have different lived experiences being disabled folks. Right?

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Dr. Ben Barry: Across disability, across gender. And so, I don't know everything. So how can, right, there be a collaboration? How can you value feedback as an act of generosity and trust? Someone cares enough that you've, you've, you're working to do something and they want to offer those feedback, that feedback and comments and design. And I think that often, in design, there's been, again, by this myth, this one designer, there's been this pressure to not always listen to feedback or comments, seeing critique is negative and that comes more for fear.

Jillian Curwin: Yeah.

Dr. Ben Barry: Rather than saying that no, design is a collaborative community effort. It is about care. How can we value feedback? How can we have a team? And how can we continuously change and better what we're doing to serve more and more people in, in ways that really meet their needs, and of course their desires? Yes, you want garments that like. work for your body, that help you move in your body, but that also help you aesthetically express how you want to show up in the world. I mean, let's not like, the core of this is also yes, there's a functional part of fashion. But it's also pleasure, and fun, and excitement and like joy. I always, you know, both of those. And so I think that having humility allows us to access all of that, particularly in design. And that hasn't been kind of a dominant perspective in fashion…

Jillian Curwin: Yeah.

Dr. Ben Barry: Which is often why nothing hasn't worked. There's been critique. Rather than being like, thank you, thank you for caring enough to share this, let's change. It's been okay, this didn't work. We're going to stop. So there is a, a value shift that needs to happen on how we think about this.

Jillian Curwin: I agree. And even with something, and I keep going back to Project Runway because I've been watching it for so long, you know. A couple of years ago they did a challenge where they, it was like when they were, I think down to like their final six, where they had Paralympians come on. It was the first time seeing disability represented, visible disability representation on the runway. First time. And not all the models, or not all the athletes that were chosen were disabled. I think there were three Paralympians and three Olympians. And I was… I was so hopeful that finally we're going to see this more. We're going to see more. Because I remember at the early seasons where they would have one challenge where they would design for a curvier, quote unquote, real women. And then eventually, as the seasons…and there was always a challenge like that. And it got to the point where now there are curvier models as part of the regular roster. We see them every episode. We see models of different, and I know there was a transgender model, we see non-binary models like, there every episode. It's not a one and done. It's not a special challenge. And so that was my hope when seeing, when I saw the Olympian-Paralympian episode.

The next season comes out, there was no disability representation. No, not even one challenge. And I'm just…then I'm like, and I see that and I get… It, it frustrates me because it's like you, it's also we're not tokens. It's not to say, okay, well we did it. We did it, and it actually did work! We did it. We proved it. We… You can design for a dis-, you can design a gown for someone in a wheelchair in two days and it will look fabulous. We did it, we proved it. And then to just not do it again and I'm just like, what are we doing? And like, this is a platform where I think, it's one of the ways that people who maybe are into fashion have been exposed to the fashion industry and kind of getting that behind the scenes look of how at least a garment gets made, even though it is all very, like you said, like there isn't that interdependence because they're all working as individuals trying to win a competition. But I see that and, you know, I know, I think they're doing another season, but I'm just like, where is this disability? Like, what are you saying by just treating it as a one and done? What is the message that you're saying to people who maybe aren't as in the know in the fashion industry about disability?

Dr. Ben Barry: Yeah, completely. That's when it becomes a spectacle, or we've done it once and look, now we're inclusive of disability. And I think that when we design curriculum, right, it's like whether it's around disability, plus-size design like, when we have a collective that's like that's great that it's an option, it's a starting place. But this needs to be foundational. Right?

Jillian Curwin: Yes.

Dr. Ben Barry: You should learn like, core curriculum, foundational design. You should be able to design this shirt for a variety of sizes, a variety of bodies, variety of shapes. Right? That is like the true… You're an incredible designer if you can design it for a variety of shapes, sizes, body, minds. And so I think that that is the place we need to be. Otherwise it really is much more performative. And yes, that's an opening, but it can also be really harmful.

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Dr. Ben Barry: Because you see this once and then where did it go? Is this no longer important?

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Dr. Ben Barry: And that's, right, not helpful for like, community and certainly not helpful for a larger kind of true transformation of fashion.

Jillian Curwin: Exactly.

And you're someone who's now, you're helping transform the industry by teaching the future of fashion. And, so then I want to know, as you're teaching and you're talking to these students about disability justice, and adaptive fashion, and these terms that I don't know if they were necessarily terms when you were in fashion school that were taught, or lessons that were taught, like how are they responding to this? Because they really are, you know, they're the next generation. They're going to be the ones showing at Fashion Week in five, ten years, maybe sooner.

Dr. Ben Barry: They're so ready.

Jillian Curwin: Yes.

Dr. Ben Barry: I mean, honestly, that is what gives me so much hope every day is that we have students in the first year of all their programs being like, I want to learn about disability. I want to learn about plus-size and fat design. I want to learn about intersectionality. I want to learn about indigenous fashion. I want to learn about all of this. I want to be able to design ethically, with care. I want to make people feel amazing in their bodies, and I want to transform the world. I think the students we have are like, are ready for this. And it's about fashion schools catching up to the students.

Jillian Curwin: That makes me so happy, though, that they're ready, that they want this because I get like, they're the future. Like they're going to be showing at…I don't think the shows are at Bryant Park anymore, but they're gonna be showing everywhere. And like, they're like, that's what we want to see. And I do think it starts there. And again, like with these, you know, and I think it it kind of also reflects that, I think, the designers who are trying, and who are making that effort, maybe they have…they're the creative director of their own label, but they're not trying to carry out the legacy of countless designers who came before, who said that disability, we're not doing it or who just never thought of it. So, to hear that like, the future that these students, who I'm sure absolutely brilliant, are like, we're here for it, we're ready for this, we want to learn. And again, it's not just disability. There's so many other issues of fashion that are not addressed. We're talking about disability. I'm disabled, you're disabled. This is a disability usually centered podcast. This is what we're talking about. But that just, it just makes me so happy to hear that like, they're ready and they want to take it on. And I just kind of wish that like, the people who are in the industry would listen to them because they're coming up, and we're going to go to the people who are designing for us.

Dr. Ben Barry: And they will. This is what I mean that's… It gives me hope every day. And. Right. Our job as educators, as fashion educators is to say, okay, let's support, cultivate, foster, embrace this interest in changing fashion and make sure that students have every opportunity to learn this. We're providing this foundational education, and let them create. And particularly when, in the classroom, you have students across identities, particularly you're serving students from an access perspective so it's a space for disabled students. These are all the spaces we're working to get to, and give me hope every single day.

Jillian Curwin: Yay! I can't wait to see like, just, with fashion industry knowing that these students, what they're learning, like knowing that you're giving them this education, can't wait to see like, what the new designers are going to be up to. I'm so excited to see. And again, talking to you is giving me a lot of hope for the industry. As much as we've… I'm frustrated with it. I am very hopeful just talking to you and hearing that.

Who do you look up to?

Dr. Ben Barry: That's such a good question. I mean, I, I think I’m deeply… I'm working on a research project right now called Crippling Masculinity, and it's specifically working with men and masculine-identified folks who are disabled, deaf, and none-identified, to kind of learn about experiences with fashion, have them lead the re-design of clothing, and I'm just honestly inspired by that community right now. Umm, not professional designers, but just the everyday wisdom and brilliance and creativity of how they redesign their clothes, and when given a platform to design however they want, what they will do. And so it's really just like the everyday creativity, brilliance of disabled folks that inspire me every day and that teach me and like, make me grateful for each day. And so that's, that's who I look up to. It's just everyday disability community that is going about life in the most brilliant creative ways and the wisdom that they hold.

Jillian Curwin: Yes, love that.

Are there any questions I have not asked that you would like to answer?

Dr. Ben Barry: No, I think you've asked me everything. It's been great.

Jillian Curwin: Okay, awesome.

Where can people follow you, follow Parsons, see what the future of fashion is up to?

Dr. Ben Barry: Yes. So you can follow Parsons, our Instagram for the School of Fashion is @sof_parsons. My Instagram is @bendrakbarry, B-E-N-D-R-A-K-B-A-R-R-Y, and you can follow me for what kind of I'm doing as Dean, and as a researcher, and as an instructor. And you can follow School of Fashion to see the incredible work of my colleagues, our students and what we're up to.

Jillian Curwin: Yes, I will have links to follow in the show notes. So if you love fashion, if you are intrigued by this conversation, please go give a follow and see, you know, stay tuned for what the fashion industry is doing, because I will be for certain.

The last thing I do it's an icebreaker with my guests. I usually have five but I am going to add on a six because I have a question that I am curious about, but it's your favorites and I want to hear your fave…I just…I have categories. I wanna hear your favorite in each one.

Dr. Ben Barry: Sounds good. Let's go. I’m ready.

Jillian Curwin: I'm going to start with the bonus one. I want to know who your favorite designer is. [laughter]

Dr. Ben Barry: I don't know if I could answer that in one question, but I will say that honestly, I'm incredibly inspired by our students. I am like, walking through our classrooms like, touching their garments, getting close to their garments. That inspires me. Those are my favorite designers. I love the brilliance that's happening in the classroom.

Jillian Curwin: Okay, I feel like that was a diplomatic answer, so you didn't necessarily have to pick a favorite, but I will accept it. I will gladly accept that one.

Favorite book.

Dr. Ben Barry: One of the books that I always come back to, it came out last year, is called Crip Kinship. And it's the story of Sins Invalid, the Disability Justice Performance Group, and the creation of Disability Justice. And it's just… beautiful story, beautiful book, and yeah, really, really amazing, and a great introduction to folks that maybe aren't as familiar with disability justice.

Jillian Curwin: Awesome.

Favorite TV show.

Dr. Ben Barry: It was only one season, but I did love a show called Katy Keene. It took place in New York and she was a… wanted to be fashion designer, and it had kind of an energy about New York and fashion that like, made me feel like I'd love to live there one day and I'd love to work in fashion in New York. And it really, really inspired me.

Jillian Curwin: Love that. That is a show that should have gotten a second season.

Dr. Ben Barry: Agreed.

Jillian Curwin: It should’ve.

Favorite drink.

Dr. Ben Barry: I'm a huge fan of Bubbly sparkling water and particularly the green apple flavor.

Jillian Curwin: Ooh, I've never tried that.

Dr. Ben Barry: So god.

Jillian Curwin: I'll try. I've been, like, getting back into sparkling waters. I took a break, so I'm going to try that. I'll let you know how I…I’ll let you know my thoughts.

Dr. Ben Barry: Yes, please do.

Jillian Curwin: Favorite piece of advice you’ve ever given.

Dr. Ben Barry: I think it was something I shared on this podcast, that feedback is an act of generosity, that we've been taught to take feedback and critique. But really someone, not always, but generally sometimes people care enough that they're sharing feedback, particularly if it's a way that you might have caused hurt, and often we've taught to be defensive, like oh, I'm so like… I didn't cause hurt, or I didn't mean to. But just to be still and listen to it and reflect on it and that’s often that someone cares enough about you and the relationship they have with you to share that.

So not all feedback is generous, but often if it's feedback away, about a better way, you might have caused hurt, that someone is caring enough about that relationship to share. And so I often, you know, listen deeply with gratitude.

Jillian Curwin: Yes.

Last one, favorite piece of advice you’ve ever received.

Dr. Ben Barry: From my brilliant associate Dean, Luciana, who shared, “Respond. Don't react.” So often…right? I will be very, sometimes I'll be reactive. I'm very, I'm passionate. I care about sort of certain beliefs, but often how do I respond versus react immediately. And so I think… I try to, I don't know if I always put that into practice. I try. But yeah.

Jillian Curwin: Love that. Perfect note to end on.

Ben, thank you so much for coming on the show. I loved every second of this conversation. You need to come back, that was not a question. You need to come back. You are going to come back.

Dr. Ben Barry: I can’t wait.

Jillian Curwin: It's going to happen. So stay tuned for that when it does. Again, thank you so, so much. Again, follow him, follow Parsons, see what the future of fashion is up to, and keep this conversation going because it is one that truly affects everyone. We all get dressed every day.

So on that note, the final, final, final thing I have to ask of you is just to remind my listeners, in your most fierce, most badass voice possible, that height is just a number, not a limit.

Dr. Ben Barry: Height is just a number. Not a limit.

Jillian Curwin: Always Looking Up is hosted by Jillian Curwin, and edited and produced by Ben Curwin. Please make sure to rate, review, and subscribe, and follow on Spotify so that you never miss an episode. Follow me on Instagram at @jill_ilana and the podcast @alwayslookingup.podcast for updates, and check out my blog, JillianIlana.com, for more content about what it is like to be a little person in an average sized world.

Thanks for listening. See you next week.