Emily Ladau On What It Means To Be Proud To Be Disabled

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00:00:03:14 Jillian Curwin: Hi everyone. Welcome to Always Looking Up, the podcast where no one is overlooked and height is only a number, never a limit, hosted by me, Jillian Curwin. Each week I'll be having a conversation about what it is like to live in a world that is not necessarily designed for you.

In this week's episode, I sat down with Emily Ladau. Emily is a disability rights activist and author of the book Demystifying Disability. What to Know, What to Say and How to Be an Ally. We discuss finding our disabled identities, ableism in the media across both sides of the aisle and what it means to say We are proud to be disabled in 2022. Let's get into it. Hi, Emily.

00:00:46:14 Emily Ladau: Hey.

00:00:48:10 Jillian Curwin: How are you?

00:00:49:22 Emily Ladau: I am, I said great when we first started talking recording. But I feel like I need to give a caveat with that, that I am also. okay as a human being, but very stressed when I consider the bigger picture of what's going on in the world.

00:01:09:13 Jillian Curwin: Right. And there's a lot going on in the world right now that I mean, we're recording this, what, two weeks after the Supreme Court decision reversing Roe. A lot has been happening since then. So, which we're going to get into, because I feel like, especially now because we're recording this is Disability Pride Month, a lot of that kind of carries into what it means to be disabled.

00:01:32:18 Emily Ladau: Yeah, I am really struggling with Disability Pride Month, to be honest with you, because of course I am proud of who I am. I am also, as is every disabled person right now coming up against these messages that we're actually not supposed to be proud of who we are. And so I'm really trying to navigate that space and not that it's anything new. Ableism is rampant all the time. But it just feels really, really particularly poignant right now when you think about the fact that our rights are literally being stripped away in front of us. That feels like a very different situation.

00:02:15:09 Jillian Curwin: Yeah. No, I've been usually I like would have posted by now. It's July 5th and I'm still struggling to find the words to say. And there's a lot more that we're going to get into. But the first question that I ask all my guests is, how do you, Emily, define being disabled?

00:02:33:03 Emily Ladau: Oh, what a good question to start with. So for me, I just call it a natural state of being part of the human experience. And maybe that is too broad. But I have always believed that disability doesn't need to have a very specific and rigid meaning.

Obviously, if we are talking about enforcing laws and we are talking about eligibility for supports and services, then yes, of course disability has more specific definitions. But I am not the type of person who believes that we need to over medicalize every single definition.

We need the answers for what diagnosis we have to receive certain services, but at the same time, I also just want people to look at disability more holistically and understand that it really is just another part of a person's mind or body.

And I don't feel like I hear enough conversation about the fact that we can hold these kind of competing ideas of, yes, diagnosis is a useful piece of information, but also sometimes it's just our state of being and we don't need to exactly be able to articulate it.

And I know those can be at odds with each other, but I also love talking about the fact that disability has a lot of nuance to it and there doesn't need to be one right way to understand it.

00:04:06:14 Jillian Curwin: I love that. And I think, you know, as someone who I've you know, like I said, like I've been born disabled, so I don't know anything else. And to me, and this is something that kind of like what you said earlier, with like under certain regulations and laws, we have to have a definition for disabled. But for me, really, I didn't necessarily embrace disabled as a term for myself until like within the past, I'd say two years. I really didn't say I'm disabled. And I think coming to that really was eye opening. And it's like, no, there really are it's not even saying like knowing that there are certain things I can't do or knowing that things I'd do differently. But it's knowing that this really is a part of my life and a part of who I am. And that's not a bad like it wasn't a bad realization for me. It was actually a really good one for me to have.

00:04:55:00 Emily Ladau: But I also can see how it's a journey that you have to come to that, because I know I was also born with my disability and even though I was never necessarily taught that disability itself was a bad word or a bad thing, I also was always given this idea that I shouldn't see myself as disabled, that seeing myself as disabled was somehow self-limiting rather than expansive, and suddenly making me part of this community and this culture and this identity. And so it really took me a while before I understood disability as part of myself in a positive way.

00:05:38:07 Jillian Curwin: Same here. And like I, you know, in my little person community, I'm trying to say this nicely without necessarily putting it down, but like disability wasn't really talked about. Like it wasn't necessarily talked about us in like disability. At least it's not how I felt. And it really wasn't until I moved to New York last year and found a greater and more diverse disabled community that really welcomed me, that I was like, no, this like. Like I needed that kind of discovery and to say, like, no disability is not a bad thing and that I'm a part of this community and that my community is not just, you know, me being the only disabled person in the room, but also me among other little people like disability's so much more.

00:06:16:00 Emily Ladau: And I love that you were able to come into that community. So interestingly, if we're going based on height, I am also a little person. I was never brought into that community. So I didn't really have a group of people who also shared my specific type of disability.

I had my mom who shares the same diagnosis, my uncle, her younger brother who shares the same diagnosis. But other than that, I didn't have a community specific to my own disability. So I really had to look outside myself to kind of figure out what it meant to be disabled and to become part of like a broader community of people who were showing me that it's okay to be proud of that. But there's a lot of complexity there because not everybody feels that way. And so I had to go on that journey for myself.

00:07:16:20 Jillian Curwin: Right. And I'm not. And one, if you ever want to come to an LPA or a little person event, I will happily bring you. We'll welcome, like you are welcome anytime.

00:07:28:09 Emily Ladau: I would love that

00:07:30:21 Jillian Curwin: Okay, it's happening. You heard it here first, people. I'm bringing Emily, to an LPA event. But I think it's I. And it's like hard to say, looking back, like I don't necessarily know if it was bad or good that like I really wasn't brought into like the disabled community as at large, like as a whole rather like even.

And it's like weird because I like was talking about it especially like with seeing Disability Pride Month things going on despite everything else that's happening in the world. But people are still posting about it. But like, I'm not seeing little people really talk, myself included. I haven't shared anything yet. Like I said before, I'm just trying to find the right words. But and I think I'm like, is this going back to the fact that we never really talked about disability? And like, even when I was younger and asking for accommodations, it wasn't because necessarily I was disabled, it's because I saw myself as just I was a little person and to me they were two different identities.

00:08:25:20 Emily Ladau: I think there is a cultural divide for sure. I think that there are people who have a disability. If we're going by a textbook definition or a legal definition, but then don't see themselves as disabled. And honestly, when I was younger, I was kind of one of those people sometimes where the nicest thing that you could say to me was that you forgot that I had a disability, or you forgot that I used a wheelchair, or like you didn't see me as disabled. And it took me a really long time before I realized that that's actually not a compliment, because then you're ignoring an entire part of who I am and basically telling me that it's only by ignoring that part of me that you see me as a whole person.

00:09:08:21 Jillian Curwin: Right. And that's part of what makes us, US. And again, whether you use person first or identity first, language like that's still a part of us. So you're taking that away and it's hard because again, like, it's coming from people sometimes who really are allies in your life or to the community and like they are saying it with the best intentions. And, and I've realized this now with like talking about it and like calling things out. Like it's sometimes really hard to do that with people who again have the best intentions, whether you recognize, like, it's hard because then you sound like you're like. Kind of going against, you're shattering what they believe.

00:09:46:22 Emily Ladau: I think about this all the time because I really do believe that most people are coming from a good place and they're well-intentioned. I'm obviously not talking about the trolls who are just out there to make fun of people with disability.

00:09:57:00 Jillian Curwin: No, we're not talking about those people. We're not talking about people…

00:10:00:24 Emily Ladau: Yeah, there are so many good people out there who have just the best of intentions when they try to avoid saying the word disability or when they say that they don't think of you as disabled. And I think that it comes from a place of we have been taught not to talk about disability and we have also not been taught about disability. We don't talk about it in school. We barely talk about it enough in the media. And when we do talk about it, it's rarely in this accurate way that contributes to a better view of disability. And so I understand why people are like, Oh, I don't think I should use that word.

00:10:40:03 Emily Ladau: Oh, I think I should stay away from this.

00:10:42:18 Jillian Curwin: Right. Like disabled is not the bad word when talking about disability. I think there are other words that I think some people are recognizing that maybe shouldn't be said, but yet still are part and ingrained in our vocabulary.

But and then there's some other words that people really, truly do know are bad and they're choosing to use them anyway. But I think for whatever reason, disabled is the one that they they fear to say.

00:11:10:15 Emily Ladau: I struggle so much with, you know, demonizing people over their language. Right. I never want to say that. I should be able to dictate anybody's language choice because it's such a personal preference. And so, that's a big priority for me, is recognizing that there's more than one way to think about and talk about disability.

But at the same time, it's also so crucial that we don't shy away from saying the word disability because that's immediately contributing to all of the stigma that the word holds in the first place. And so my hope is that we can just get to this point where we can have these open conversations about a range of language. We can recognize that there are terms that people don't find acceptable, but other people do find acceptable. There are terms that are just off limits all the time, like language has layers.

00:12:13:06 Jillian Curwin: Can you explain for maybe people who don't understand or who want to be a better ally what some words are that are generally ruled as unacceptable, but some people do, choose to use them.

00:12:24:22 Emily Ladau: 100%. So I think first we should talk about some of the euphemisms that people tend to use for disability, and that would be terms like “special needs” or “differently-abled”. And a lot of disabled people are not a fan of those because why are our needs special and how come our abilities are different?

Because everybody has needs and everybody has different abilities. And so those are terms that a lot of people reject, but they are also terms that a lot of disabled people embrace. And so I try to strike a balance and say that's not my personal preference. I would really prefer that you not use it and shift to disability when possible. But at the same time, if it's your personal preference and you have a disability, go for it as long as you don't impose it on me.

And then, you know, there are words that we definitely would not think it's acceptable for anyone to say like “Cripple” or “Crip”, for example. But a lot of physically disabled people have reclaimed that as a term for themselves.

So if somebody else calling me a “cripple”, that would be a slur. But if I was to say “Cripple” or “Crip” or something like that, I would be using it in a way that I'm reclaiming that language. So it gets complicated and it gets sticky, and I understand that and it feels like there's a lot of rules, but it really comes down to knowing your particular place and respecting preferences.

00:13:57:16 Jillian Curwin: Agreed. And I didn't know and like and again, until meeting like the disabled community at large, like what they wanted to be called how and again, like I found with all of my friends, it's all very individual based on how they identify themselves.

And it's interesting, like the idea of reclaiming the word and because I think at least for the little person community, there's one word that is very like it's a slur and it's the “M”-word, I'm not going to say it, but there are some people who I think with that word, it's hard because I know there are some people who do use that word. And again, that's their right. But I think because that's also has become so ingrained and, like, there are school mascots who go by that and they fight back against the little person community saying that they have the right to use it. But I think the community as a whole isn't necessarily trying to reclaim that word for us, like we don't call each other that necessarily. And so it's like frustrating to see that the community, like people aren't listening to the little to the little person community when we're telling you how we want to be addressed.

00:15:09:04 Emily Ladau: I am so on board with that because I think you're pointing out something really important, which is that you cannot say the disability community is reclaiming the word cripple, like you can't say that because that's not true. You can say that certain people within the community are choosing to reclaim the words for themselves.

And I feel like that's a really important distinction because the vast majority of people still find that term to be disrespectful. Same thing goes from the “M”-word right there, maybe certain people within the little people community who are like, “Yeah, I'm using this for myself,” but you can't impose that preference on an entire community. And when the community at large is saying this is harmful and this is disrespectful…

00:15:51:09 Jillian Curwin: Right.

00:15:51:22 Emily Ladau: You have to listen to that.

00:15:53:19 Jillian Curwin: Right. Especially because people know that it's a… non-disabled people, non-little people know that it's a slur and they're still choosing. Whereas like I know with- there're other slurs out there that people are aware of and do try, if they're not a part of that community, not trying to reclaim that word, do try not to say [it]. So I think that's where it gets like extra frustrating is that people know that this is not okay.

00:16:16:05 Emily Ladau: Yeah. And I like to think that when people know better, they do better. But I just don't think that's true. And in the case of language, sometimes largely because it becomes so ingrained in us that it's hard to break a habit of using specific words.

But I think also just because people really don't recognize the history of harm behind words, they just throw them around without understanding that there's really, really deep meaning behind some of these words for people.

00:16:46:23 Jillian Curwin: Right. And do you think because like it's because it's not taught? Because, like, I didn't learn and I've said this before, like, about the disability rights movement as a whole, like, you know, just like from the seventies on.

And before that I didn't learn about a lot of that until watching Crip Camp. It's like it's not being taught in schools the way other civil rights movements are talking about it, I think. And like, I mean, like, do you think that's a part of why some of these beliefs are so hard to like challenge?

00:17:16:15 Emily Ladau: Oh, absolutely. And then to be honest with you, and this is maybe the first time that I'm articulating this thought publicly, but I imagine that Crip Camp is probably also really confusing to people as a title because not only have we been ignoring talking about disability in mainstream culture and ignoring talking about it in school curricula, we're now jumping right into disability culture and we're calling something Crip Camp. And so I think that that's probably although it's intriguing, maybe also a little bit of a source of confusion for people who are barely even comfortable saying the word disability. And now all of a sudden it's like Crip Camp. What? And so, yeah, I think that there's this big discomfort with talking about disability and there's confusion about what words are okay to use I also would hope that we would at least have conversations in schools about this word is okay, this word is not okay.

But the context helps too. And when we're not having the history lessons, when we're not talking about disabled people, for example, as part of a broader, diverse fabric of society, yeah, it's going to be kind of confusing when one day history is introduced to you through a documentary called Crip Camp and you get a little bit of whiplash and you're like, What is okay to say, what is not okay to say?

00:18:49:09 Jillian Curwin: Right. And it's hard because, again, like that movie I think is so important, like and again, like myself, I'm 27 or I was, I guess 25 when it came out and I didn't know about my own history. And that was also it came at a really important time because that's when I really think fell into my advocacy and really not just like as a little person, but like as like a disabled person. I was like, no, I like so like having that and watching it. I remember talking to people from abroad who were seeing it and like, “Well, didn't you learn about this in school?” I'm like, “No, it wasn't talked about,” and like thinking back even like now it's like I didn't identify as disabled, like I was a little person. The things I asked for that I needed for accommodations was because I was a little person, not because I thought I was disabled.

00:19:33:19 Emily Ladau: Yeah. I think that there is a big disconnect between how we figure out who we are and the things that we're taught and the the way that the world portrays us, and if we could begin to connect those dots, I really think that disabled people would have an easier time figuring out their identities. And if at the end of the day, you decide that you don't want to identify as disabled even if you have a disability. Technically, I'm not going to tell you you can't do that, like that's totally up to you, but I also just want people to understand that there is this broad umbrella of a disability community and you do have a part in it if you want that part.

00:20:22:00 Jillian Curwin: Exactly like…it's exactly. I think that everyone, again, like myself, like like we all go on these journeys and each journey is your own in your way and there's no right or wrong path for you. It's just finding what works for you, butI think it's important to have all the information for you to be able to decide who you want to be.

00:20:44:13 Emily Ladau: I think having the information comes from conversations like these, right? I feel like right now where so many disabled people get their information is. Finding community on social media and finding community online. And, you know, we are the ones filling the gaps for ourselves right now.

00:21:09:13 Jillian Curwin: Exactly. And that's why I you know, I think I've probably said this before and, if not, I'll say it again, like on the podcast, like I started this for my younger self, like this isn't for me. This isn't for like this is for my younger self who didn't have this information. And if I… knowing I did it, there are young little people, young disabled people, young people who are siblings, who want to be a better ally, who didn't have this information, who don't have this information. And then this is the place where we get to have these conversations and really talk about it.

00:21:40:08 Emily Ladau: I have so often wished that I could. Have a conversation with my younger self. I think about her a lot. She needed conversations like these and she didn't have them because well, first of all, because when you and I were growing up, I'm just a few years older than you. So it's not like or even was social media to be making these connections. So, you know, now I feel like if I had been growing up now, I think I would have been a different person much earlier. But it took me a lot longer and a lot more turmoil to get here.

00:22:13:01 Jillian Curwin: 100%. And like. I think I needed to go through that. But at the same time, I wish at least while I was going through it, I had these resources and I had these conversations to listen to and I had social media to connect with people and like to really talk to them and just say, I'm the only little person in the room. I'm the only disabled person in this room. I feel alone. I just need to talk to someone who gets it.

00:22:37:20 Emily Ladau: And once you find the people who get it, that is the most life changing thing. And I always had that in a way with my mom since she has the same disability. But, you know, there's something to be said for being surrounded by other disabled people.

00:22:53:20 Jillian Curwin: Right. You have it's that community. It's that just, like understanding. Like it's just like you're being around people who get it. And, you know, I love I'm the only disabled person in my family. And I my mom has been there through everything, and I know she gets it, but there's still a part of my life that she's not experiencing in the same way that I… that she's just not experiencing it. She's kind of always going to be on the outside looking in as to what I'm experiencing on a daily basis.

00:23:21:11 Emily Ladau: Yeah. And I don't like to push people away and say like, no, you don't get it because you're not in my body, so that's like never what I mean by that. But it's just like you don't occupy the exact same space in the world that I do.

00:23:37:01 Jillian Curwin: Right.

Right. And I think, you know, I like thinking back again, like because it's Disability Pride Month, and that's a topic that we're all trying to talk about. Like. I think before I wouldn't necessarily say if I was told that I was disabled and recognized it younger, like I don't know if I would have necessarily been proud of it. Then again, with everything going on right now, it's really hard to be proud of it. And it's also like I feel like with the conversations around disability, it's like people ask like, “Why are you proud to be disabled? Why don't you want to be different? Why don't you want to be quote unquote normal, which what is normal anyway?” And so it's like when people ask like, “Why are you proud to be disabled?” Or, “What does it mean to be proud to be disabled?” How do you answer that?

00:24:23:00 Emily Ladau: It's a really. Hard question to answer sometimes because I don't want people to think that I'm under any illusion that it's all sunshine and roses all the time, because being disabled is absolutely the hardest part of my life.

00:24:41:06 Jillian Curwin: Yeah.

00:24:41:17 Emily Ladau: But at the same time. It's not always the hardest part of my life because of my body. Sometimes it's the hardest part of my life because of the attitudes that people hold towards me. You know, it depends on the day. Sometimes I'm also just in a lot of physical pain. Sometimes it's really annoying that I can't get into a building. You know, sometimes I'm just exhausted in this body and don't want someone to make another comment to me about it.

And so, yeah, sometimes it is really hard to be proud of being disabled, but at the same time, when I remind myself that I have a culture and a history, an identity, that there is something that has come before me that has made my experiences meaningful.

I start to realize. I am proud of who I am. I didn't choose it for myself. You know, it is how I entered into the world. It is what it is. So I guess people would be like, “Why are you proud of something that you can't control?” I'm proud of it because I'm navigating every single day in this body and figuring it out along the way. And I'm proud of it because. I want to be happy with who I am in a world that tells me that I shouldn't be happy with who I am.

It feels rebellious. It feels kind of radical. And that's pretty cool. So when people say, Why are you proud? I'm proud because the rest of the world has given me reasons to be proud. If you're going to look down on me and make my life harder, I am going to push right back and say I have just as much of a right to take up space as any of you do.

00:26:43:00 Jillian Curwin: Exactly. I love that. I never thought of it. Kind of like being a rebel, and I really love that. Yeah, it's like I don't know anything else about not being disabled. Like, this is just, you know, and it's like, I'm proud to be a little person, and I'm proud to be disabled. It's like I'm proud to just have gotten to this point. Like, I wouldn't have gotten to this point today if I wasn't. And was it hard? Hell, yeah. There are some days where and there are some moments that, like, I'm just like over it and like just over people, over the environment coming up, a just constant think of ableism whether it's from the environment you're in or from people or a combination. And you're just like… And nobody realizes it, like they don't. I think ableism as such is and you can hang me if you like, you think differently, like it's something people don't see. They don't recognize the way that they do with other prejudices. And it's not talked about the way that other I mean. Even like Disability Pride Month, like I haven't seen any awareness from any other companies. And like, it was like, it's just like it's July.

00:27:54:06 Emily Ladau: I've been thinking about that too, because it's so funny. Like, on the one hand, I get kind of mad when I see companies that, like, jump on the bandwagon for a month, so, like, during Pride Month in June, suddenly every company cares about LGBTQIA+ people.

00:28:13:14 Emily Ladau: Right? But then July comes and it's like, “Oh, they don't exist to us anymore.” Like… and so I hate that kind of virtue signaling. But on the other hand, there's like this added layer of invisibility for disabled people, especially disabled people who have other marginalized identities, where it's like, hello, hello, we're over here.

And so, yeah, we don't talk about ableism and we don't we don't prioritize disability as a cultural group when in fact it's an identity that anyone can take on at any time. It cuts across all other identities. I mean, it's not something that we should be ignoring. And yet we're like, completely not talking about it. So when I say that I am proud of my disability, I do feel like it's an act of rebellion because I'm actively saying, I want you to see me. I want you to see this. This is real and this is who I am.

00:29:17:16 Jillian Curwin: Hundred percent. Like like you said, disability doesn't discriminate. It can affect anyone at any time. We're the world's largest minority, and yet nobody wants to talk about it and it's like, do you think it's purely out of ignorance or do you think there is a fear there as well?

00:29:32:10 Emily Ladau: I think it's both. I think it's both. I think it's ignorance. But I think that that ignorance is really deeply rooted in fear in a way, because when people who are non-disabled see disability, there is sort of this fear that I think awakens within them.

Like, I don't want that to happen to me. I don't want that to be me. I don't want that to be my family member. So then you're grappling with literally your own physicality and your own mortality and suddenly it's like, oh my God, I don't want to talk about this. This is scary. This is bad. This is shameful. And so, yeah, I think it's ignorance that comes from being afraid of the unknown when in fact it really is, as we were talking about before, just part of being a human.

00:30:21:14 Jillian Curwin: Right. And I think… and again, I think it also comes back to like the lack of education and that it's not talked about. And so, again, people are not aware of their external ableism And even myself, I wasn't necessarily aware of my internal ableism until I really started my own disability education and finding my voice as a disabled person and not just a little person. And I think that and especially with what's going on now, that disability is not being included in these important conversations that are happening in this country.

00:30:55:14 Emily Ladau: Or it's being used as a prop, which is also my least favorite thing where it's like, oh, well, you can't get an abortion because the baby has a disability because that's ableist and how dare you? And oh, you know, you shouldn't force someone to take care of a disabled baby because that's a burden.

And just like either way, you look at it, disabled people are just being flung back and forth in the conversation rather than being recognized as actual human beings who also need to be part of the conversation. Because plenty of disabled people also have uteruses and plenty of disabled people also want bodily autonomy. That shouldn't be a contest. Like what?

00:31:44:07 Jillian Curwin: Right. And it's like frus-, it's it's like I'm trying to think of, like, the best way to ask this question. Like, how what would be the right way for people to talk about with at least like using the abortion?

Because that's what's happening right now will be the right way to talk to bring disability into that conversation. Because I do think people don't understand.

00:32:05:01 Emily Ladau: I honestly think the best way to bring disability into the conversation is to acknowledge that it is complex. I think people are afraid to bring it into the conversation because it's not easy to talk about. And again, because disability itself is a scary concept.

But I think we first need to acknowledge the humanity of disability. We need to say disabled people are also affected by this legislation, sometimes even more so than non-disabled people. We need to look at the health risks. We need to look at the financial implications. We need to look at how people are being impacted in terms of their access to health care. We need to look at the fact that. Disabled people already have a history of our rights being taken away when it comes to controlling our bodies. And so this is not a new conversation for us.

00:33:05:08 Jillian Curwin: Right.

00:33:06:09 Emily Ladau: And when we start to realize that actually much of the history of taking away the rights to bodily autonomy is rooted in taking those right away from disabled people. You realize that not only should you be including disabled people in the conversation, actually they are literally central to the conversation. So, I think in terms of how we should be talking about it. We need to be bringing disabled people to the center of the conversation.

00:33:36:16 Jillian Curwin: I could not agree more. And I feel like when I do see it being talked about, it's being talked about by non-disabled people and they're talking as if they're the experts as to what it is, what it means to be disabled and that like no disabled people are like are being included in these conversations. And it's like, no, if you're going to talk about it, bring in disabled people, not person. Don't bring in one, bring in disabled people to talk about it. Because, again, it's so multifaceted. And what this decision means for me means something different for you and your body like it means and it's mean something different to someone else's body with a different disability. Like it's not just this doesn't, this issue doesn't affect disability in the same way for everyone.

00:34:19:06 Emily Ladau: 100%. And that has so much to do with whether your disability is genetic, whether you acquired your disability, how your disability affects you and your body and your mind, how you feel about your disability, how the people in your life engage with you as a disabled person.

00:34:35:14 Emily Ladau: There are so many factors to this. You know, the access that you have, the other identities that you hold, like there is so much to this. And so, yeah, you're absolutely right. It can't be that one person is the spokesperson like, not only are you just kind of ignoring disability except for this one person. But, you're ignoring that disability looks different for everyone. So yeah. No one person can be the spokesperson on this issue.

00:35:03:23 Jillian Curwin: No. And they shouldn't be. And I think, again, like bring disabled people into these conversations when you're talking about how these decisions that are being made by our lawmakers and by the courts right now are affecting us because like, I just can't stress that enough because it doesn't affect everyone the same. It just like it doesn't affect non-disabled people of different like the same. Like this isn't a it's not one size fits all.

00:35:27:23 Emily Ladau: And this is why I always go back to the fact that terms like “special needs” and “differently-abled” don't work because they it totally cancels out like every single human being right now is grappling with their needs. And every single human being has different abilities, and every single human being is a different person. And so we cannot. As much as we try and as much as we look for the data and the statistics to lump people together into groups, we can't really do that. Each person is a person.

00:36:01:20 Jillian Curwin: Agreed and it's like, I actually didn't know “differently-abled” until relatively… like for me, it was disabled or not disabled or able bodied and “differently-abled” is a relatively new term for me. And when I first heard it, I'm like, We all do things differently. Like we all we're all each individuals like we all do things differently, so to just to apply that, though, to disabled people doesn't work. It truly just doesn't work like. It's just a way for, I guess, nondisabled people to talk about it without, again, avoiding the word disabled.

00:36:35:16 Emily Ladau: Yeah. It's all it's all very confusing when I try to wrap my head around it, the lengths that people will go to, to not say the word disability, to not include disability in conversation, to not think about it or talk about it. And I really hope that we are continuing to shift away from that. And then people will begin to actually make disability central to all of these really important conversations that we're having. Because if you're not talking about disability, you're missing a huge part of the picture.

00:37:08:12 Jillian Curwin: 100%. Do you think that the cultural depictions of disability, or even like when disability is talked about in the news before, what the decisions like, how is that made an impact as to how everyday people treat you or treat disabled people?

I don't know if I phrased that right. I think I got a little jumbled.

00:37:30:05 Emily Ladau: No. I think it's spot on. I think that, you know, most of the media portrayals that I've seen are these like very one note sort of caricatures of disability. And they don't really show like the full complexity of what it means to be a disabled human.

So it's just like this is our disabled character and that's it. And I think then sometimes it goes in the other direction where it's like very exploitative and it's very focused on using disability for entertainment. You know, disability is inspiring, disability is tragic, disability is like the bad guy, it's the victim. You know, there's always got to be some kind of, like, storyline that goes with it. And I am a human being and not a storyline. You know, there's so much more to me.

00:38:27:14 Jillian Curwin: Exactly. And I think even those like portrayals and those stereotypes have carried over how we talk about disability in the real world. And I'm thinking of prior to the court's decision of and it happened recently and I was like in Delaware right after it happened, when President Biden fell off his bike and then people immediately started questioning his capabilities. And I'm like, he fell off his bike. Like, I don't think people realize how ableist they were sounding when talking about it. And I'm like, he fell off his bike. Like anybody falls off. Anybody can fall off their bike. It doesn't affect who they are. Like it happens.

00:39:05:18 Emily Ladau: Yeah, I was like, I bet you probably have fallen off your bike before, but you're just over here being all high and mighty on Twitter right now. He thinks I'm being obnoxious, like, and it's so funny to me because when you see comments like that, it's very easy to see how it's really hard for people to wrap their mind around, including disability in these big, heavy conversations, because right now it's like the butt of a joke or the sign of incapability or, you know, it's it's never just like this is part of a person. It always has to be attributed to some kind of stereotype.

00:39:48:01 Jillian Curwin: Right. And like, again, it doesn't have and it doesn't impact what they are capable of in the sense of being like I'm I'm getting jumbled with my words today. Like it doesn't just because then they suddenly have a moment like it doesn't then necessarily define who they are forever, like suddenly like then anything you thought about them before. Like goes out the window just. And it's all now, “Oh, they're disabled. They can't. They can't, they can't.” Like, that is not the right narrative. And that's not that's just not true.

00:40:20:03 Emily Ladau: Right? It's all about not reducing a person to any one thing and also recognizing that we have these, like, preconceived notions in our head about who is capable and who is worthy. And we base these ideas on what we've learned and what we haven't learned and what we've seen and what we haven't seen. And so we assume certain things are a sign of weakness or a sign of unworthiness when it's actually, again, just part of being a person.

00:40:58:00 Jillian Curwin: Right. And I don't think... I feel like I've definitely noticed it in like the mainstream media, not in TV, not like not scripted, not anything that someone wrote, but like in just the media. Like I feel like this is something like very external vocal ableism in like in the past five, six years that I've like really caught it and really said, no, this is not okay. And like that everyone, no one is really seeing like how ablest we're being and it's perpetuating this problem.

00:41:27:03 Emily Ladau: Yeah, it's always been there. But I think what's happening is just, you know, everything is colliding with political partizanship and social media and, you know, it it's really, really easy for people to fall into the trap of ableism as a way to express their views and their frustration and. It's. I think just become so common because people aren't even thinking about anyone outside themselves when they're saying things, you know, they're not thinking about the impact and the repercussions of their words. They're just frustrated in these very difficult moments. And they're putting it all out there and they're saying horrible things. And we have been shown by the media that if you say horrible things, you're probably going to be rewarded. So it's just a cycle.

00:42:20:05 Jillian Curwin: Yeah. I wasn't going to say, but you kind of like brought up an example. So this happened during the 2016 election. The former president, he was then a candidate, on stage in front of thousands of people and millions watching on TV made fun of a disabled reporter. And when I explained how wrong it was and people would tell me, “No, he didn't.” And I'm like, “Yes, he did, like you're exacerbating the problem.” And I think that moment where no one really called him out and held him responsible has led to both sides really just being more either, whether they recognize or not, like vocally ableist and perpetuate and like again, perpetuating this idea that we can talk about disability like this.

00:43:05:15 Emily Ladau: It's been a total downward spiral in terms of how people use disability to insult, like, yeah, progressives are in no way good about this at all. Like, I just want to be very, very clear that this I'm not like a both sides person at all, but this is the both sides issue. Both sides have a problem with this.

00:43:28:15 Jillian Curwin: Same here. I'm not, I, no, this is like something that I've seen on both sides. I can probably identify where it started, but like, it's definitely I've seen both sides and I get angry when both sides do it. Like equally angry.

00:43:41:09 Emily Ladau: I'm going to say something that people will get mad at me for. But I like to remind people that President Obama once made a joke about the Special Olympics and bowling. He said something on a late night show about how he's not good at bowling. I think it was, “And he should be on the Special Olympics team,” and that is wildly offensive. And he apologized for it. But I just really want people to stop and think before they get real mad at one side that both sides do this.

Yeah. And nobody likes it. When I point out that progressives also do it, especially not Barack Obama, but like no one is free of their ableism.

00:44:27:18 Jillian Curwin: No, no. And I will, just like for the record, because I know for people who are listening, you did not see my jaw drop when she said that. So my jaw did drop. I did not know that. But I have again, since, you know, talking like since at least 2015 have really seen it on both sides. So I was worried, but I do not know. I do not either know or do not remember that incident. Yeah. Go ahead.

00:44:51:09 Emily Ladau: Oh, just here to blow some minds a little bit. I mean, nobody likes it when you call out your preferred side, but I'm going to do it.

00:45:00:03 Jillian Curwin: Doesn't matter. I'm here for blowing minds. So how can someone then listening to this conversation and who either thinks they are an ally and want to be better or realize like truly want to be a better ally to the disabled community. Like, where do they start?

00:45:19:23 Emily Ladau: Keep listening to conversations like this. I think that is a really good starting point because getting perspectives directly from the disability community is such a good way to begin or continue if you're continuing to learn about disability. You know, I'm not really looking for someone to spend every waking moment reading and researching and doing their homework.

I would love for you to do your homework, but I'm just looking for you to engage with disabled people, engage with disabled created content and media. You know, take some time to think critically about what you're reading. Should I share this article? Is this actually furthering disability rights or is this perpetuating a stereotype? You know, if you're not sure about something, take some time to research it and sit on it and think with it. I think being a good ally just means being thoughtful and also being open to feedback.

If somebody takes the time to say, “Hey, what you did wasn't really cool,” don't immediately get defensive. Sit with it. It's going to be uncomfortable. But once you know better, you can do better. And if you're going to make a mistake, it's okay because lots of people make mistakes, but just be willing to learn from those mistakes.

00:46:45:05 Jillian Curwin: Right. And also, like those people who are like telling you or trying to correct you, they're not coming from a place to make you feel bad. They're not coming from a place to, you know, shame you or to like they're coming from a place where they want to they want you to learn. They just want you to know they're not trying to embarrass you or anything. They just really they just want you to know.

00:47:07:14 Emily Ladau: Exactly like I, with exceptions, I'm not going to immediately be like, wow, you're a bad person. You know?

00:47:15:06 Jillian Curwin: No.

00:47:16:21 Emily Ladau: Like some people are actually bad people, but most people, like we were talking about our well-intentioned.

00:47:22:05 Jillian Curwin: Right and we can tell who the bad. You can kind of tell instantly who the bad people are like, who's just truly being ignorant and who actually just genuinely doesn't know.

00:47:33:01 Emily Ladau: Yeah. I'd like to think at this point that I kind of can get a person's vibe. Just from communicating with them and can tell when someone like, really wants to do right by you and just doesn't really know how to go about it, and when someone's just being a jerk.

00:47:50:12 Jillian Curwin: Right. And I've been surprised. It's not a foolproof radar that I have, but overall, like, I'm usually pretty. You know, I think overall we're pretty good at detecting where a person is coming from when they're saying something ableist or offensive or anything like that.

00:48:08:20 Emily Ladau: And, you know, I don't want to coddle anybody, but I also want people to feel like there's a little bit of room to mess up and room to grow.

00:48:21:08 Jillian Curwin: Yeah. Always. If anyone wanted to read and you might understand why I'm getting to where I'm getting to, this is giving you a little chance. Do you recommend any books?

00:48:32:20 Emily Ladau: Well.

00:48:33:22 Jillian Curwin: Wonder why I might ask that.

00:48:34:13 Emily Ladau: It's so funny, because I literally almost never go to mine first. But I will take the hint. And I did write a book. It's called Demystifying Disability What to Know What to Say and How to Be an Ally.

It's available in print and e-book and audiobook, and I also have a plain language version on my website for free, for accessibility purposes. So you just pop on to, it's emilyladau.com. Pretty straightforward and simple, and all the information about my book is there.

But in terms of other books to read, I mean, I feel like the list is endless and I have a list of resources in the back of my book that suggests a bunch of books. But, you know, Disability Visability that Alice Wong edited and The Pretty One by Keah Brown, and Haben, which is Haben Girma's book, and Being Heumann which is Judy Huemann's book, Sitting Pretty by Rebecca Taussig. I mean, I feel like I could just name books all day and it would be really fun. But yeah, there's. There's so many books out there. Pick one up and just get going. Get learning. Get reading.

00:49:57:21 Jillian Curwin: Please do. Like, please. Yes. And that was a way for you to plug your book. I wanted to give you that opportunity. Who do you look up to?

00:50:11:14 Emily Ladau: I feel like I'm going to give the cliche answer, but 100% my mom. 100%. I mean, you know, just because it's. A privilege that I don't think people recognize as a privilege to have, a disabled person in your life who is showing you the ropes in in so many ways. That is super, super cool. And I don't take it for granted. You know, and then in terms of within the broader disability community, I mean, my peers, honestly, yes, there are amazing people who have come before me, but I think that there are also some real badasses who are doing the work right now, you know, and again, like, I can just sit here and start rattling off names, but then someone's going to be like, Why didn't you mention my name? So, you know, I. I have so much respect for the people in my life who are doing so much to educate.

And you know what? I'm gonna name one person who I'm such a fan. Her name is Sandy Ho. She started the Disability Intersectionality Summit. And she is also the program director for the Disability Inclusion Fund at Borealis Philanthropy. And I just think she is like the coolest human and such a good disability activist and just one of my favorite people. I have many favorite disabled people. But Sandy's work for the community and for disability justice should not go unnoticed.

00:51:58:16 Jillian Curwin: No, she's a badass. She is a badass. Are there any questions I have not asked that you would like to answer?

00:52:09:19 Emily Ladau: Hmm. I don't think so. I feel like this is like a very thorough conversation, you know? I feel like we just got right into it.

00:52:15:21 Jillian Curwin: We got we got into it. And that is a totally no is a totally acceptable answer. Everyone's always like, I think of like afraid to say, like, I think we covered everything. I'm like, that's that's okay. That's the point of the question.

00:52:30:15 Emily Ladau: I think the other thing is like, there's so much we didn't cover, but that's okay because there are other disabled people in this world who can talk about other things.

00:52:38:03 Jillian Curwin: Right. And it also means, though, that you do have to come on again.

00:52:41:06 Emily Ladau: I could come back, maybe. If you'll have me.

00:52:44:15 Jillian Curwin: Of course. Absolutely

00:52:46:14 Emily Ladau: This was so fun. This was so fun. And I just wanted to say, like, it's funny for people who are listening, you know, Jillian had reached out to me a while ago and I like bookmarked this in my mind because I was going through a time where I was like, I need to give myself a break. And I hope that for Disability Pride Month, people will recognize that it's actually okay to give yourself a break. Like the opportunity will still be there when you come back to it. And if it's not, it wasn't the right opportunity and there will be another one.

00:53:23:07 Jillian Curwin: Mic drop at that. I like nothing out further to add for that point. Where can people follow you? Because they should if they're not already?

00:53:33:14 Emily Ladau: Well, on Facebook. I'm at Words I Wheel By and let's see on Twitter. I am @emily_laudu and on Instagram I'm @emilyladau, no underscore. And also getting kind of into LinkedIn like a nerd lately so you can find me on there too and…Yeah, that's it. I'm only just starting to pretend to like TikTok, so I'm not on there yet.

00:54:02:19 Jillian Curwin: Okay, I'll have links to all those in the show notes. So if you are not following her, please do. The final thing I do is kind of like an icebreaker, but it's at the end. So it's just like final fast favorites.

I have five categories and I want to hear your favorite in each one. Um. I know we talked about books, but I want to hear your favorite.

00:54:27:07 Emily Ladau: This is really hard and I wanted to come prepared with an answer, but I don't know that I have one. I don't know that I have one because there's so many books that I like. But a really good one is Too Late to Die Young by Harriet McBryde Johnson.

00:54:46:06 Jillian Curwin: Love it. Favorite TV show.

00:54:51:22 Emily Ladau: Okay, I just finished Scandal, and I kind of hated it, but I kind of loved it. So maybe that. But also my real favorite is Parks and Rec.

00:55:00:02 Jillian Curwin: Yes. I also had the same like love hate relationship with Scandal and I had that the entire time I was watching it.

00:55:07:00 Emily Ladau: Like, I'm mad at it, but I kind of loved it. But Parks and Rec is my real favorite.

00:55:12:02 Jillian Curwin: Love, favorite drink.

00:55:16:04 Emily Ladau: So I am not an alcohol drinker. So my favorite little life hack is I will get ginger ale and cranberry juice with a lime in it. And it looks like I'm drinking something fruity, but it's just cranberry juice and ginger ale with a lime in it and it's delicious.

00:55:33:05 Jillian Curwin: Love it. I'm gonna try that because I'm also not like a big, like, cocktail person. I feel like whenever everyone has one, I'm like, I don't want that.

00:55:41:23 Emily Ladau: Yeah. Yeah. Not a huge drinker. Love me a mocktail, though.

00:55:46:13 Jillian Curwin: Love it. Favorite piece of advice you've ever given.

00:55:51:10 Emily Ladau: You don't owe everyone your whole story. You get to decide what you tell people.

00:55:57:02 Jillian Curwin: Ooh. Stealing that.

00:56:01:12 Emily Ladau: You're welcome to steal it. Please.

00:56:03:16 Jillian Curwin: I mean, I will give you a credit. I will absolutely give you credit. But when I pass that on, I will. I'm passing that on to people. I also needed that today. Last one favorite piece of advice you've ever received?

00:56:16:23 Emily Ladau: If you don't answer that email right now, no one is going to die.

00:56:52:17 Jillian Curwin: That's brilliant. That is I think it's especially with, like, the culture today that is. So that is such good advice.

00:57:01:19 Emily Ladau: And it is true. It has never not been true.

00:57:07:19 Jillian Curwin: I need a moment with that one, honestly.

00:57:10:04 Emily Ladau: Oh, sit with it. Because, like, so do I. My mom is always telling me, like, “Are you a heart surgeon?” And I was like, “No, I'm definitely not.” And she was like, “Then if somebody's going to die, if you do not answering that email or phone call?” And I was like, “No, no, you're right. Guess not.”

00:57:25:22 Jillian Curwin: I need to tell myself that every day. I'm putting on a sticky note, every day on my computer. Emily, this has been such an amazing conversation. Thank you so, so much for coming on. You have a open invitation to come back any time to talk about anything your heart desires.

The final, final, final thing I just ask of you and all my guests is to do the sign off. So in your most fierce, most badass voice you have, please just remind my listeners that height is just a number, not a limit.

00:57:58:19 Emily Ladau: Oh, this is especially relevant for me. Height is just a number, not a limit.

00:58:08:03 Jillian Curwin: Always Looking Up is hosted by Jillian Curwin and edited and produced by Ben Curwin. Please make sure to rate review and subscribe and follow on Spotify so that you never miss an episode. Follow me on Instagram @jill_ilana and the podcast at @alwayslookingup.podcast for updates and check out my blog., jillianilana.com, for more content about what it is like to be a little person in an average sized world. Thanks for listening. See you next week.