Zane Landin On The Intersectionality Of Disability
00:00:00:05 Jillian Curwin: Hi everyone. Welcome to Always Looking Up the podcast for no one is overlooked and height is only a number. Never a limit. Hosted by me Jillian Curwin. Each week I'll be having a conversation about what it is like to live in a world that is not necessarily designed for you.
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Foreground: A dark green box with a photo of Zane - a Hispanic man with brown hair, wearing glasses, and wearing a black plaid jacket over a black, collared, button-down shirt. Below is the white text “#58 Zane Landin - The Intersectionality of Disability”. Below the text is a white line, the rewind, pause, and fast forward symbols.
In this week's episode, I sat down with Zane. Landin Zane is a mental health and disability advocate, queer rights activist, entrepreneur and positive change maker who identifies as Hispanic, queer and disabled. He is the founder of Positive Vibes magazine, which is a digital magazine dedicated to telling authentic stories about mental health, wellness and inspiration.
We discuss the intersectionality of disability, coming to terms with our disabled identities, and the importance of being both an ally and an advocate in the disabled community. Let's get into it. Hi, Zane.
00:00:53:18 Zane Landin: Hello. How's it going?
00:00:55:14 Jillian Curwin: Good. How are you?
00:00:57:03 Zane Landin: I'm doing well today. Thank you again for having me on the podcast to talk about my personal journey.
00:01:02:22 Jillian Curwin: Of course, I am so excited to be talking to you and so excited to hear more about your story and to talk about disability disability advocacy. But first, why don't you tell both me and my listeners a little bit about yourself?
00:01:16:08 Zane Landin: Sure. So as you said, my name is Zane Landin. I go by he, him, his. I am 24 year old. I grew up in California, in Chino. So here my whole life working remotely at General Motors as a DEI communications intern. I just graduated from Cal Poly Pomona with a Bachelor of Science in Communication and Public Relations. And I'll start from the very beginning, as I will disclose, I've always been around disability, mental health. I think a lot of people are. They just don't know they are. Because, you know, there are a lot of disabilities that are invisible in mental health is invisible. So I think that we're actually around a lot of people with disabilities that we just we don't know.
And I think that as more advocacy comes out and more disability advocacy is moving forward, we're going to have hopefully more people disclosing. And, you know, just the traditional idea of what a disability looks like, like someone with a physical disability, that's erased. And now that we can, it's across all borders, all barriers that a disability can be anything. I mean, anything as in not just someone in a wheelchair. It can look like anything. You know what I mean?
And so for me I always started off, I started off, you know, having anger issues as a kid, having sadness and depression. That manifests a lot later. Even though I did see a psychologist for a long time, probably six or seven years to deal with my emotions and learn how to handle them better. I'll start off with, you know, I always had difficulty in school. I had difficulty in school socializing and I had difficulty with homework. I always had a huge issue with attention. Even now, it's probably an issue, which is why I have to hyperfocus on things as much as I can. And sometimes reading can be difficult because I have the short attention span. And so I had, like, alternative classes, and I had times where I could talk to someone. Like, it's not exactly a psychologist, but kind of like a counselor where other students didn't. So I had time set aside for that. And I was given less homework. And that was hard because, you know, I kind of thought maybe there was something wrong with me because I needed this, like, special treatment. But I, you know, I learned that, you know, it actually was really helpful and it was good accommodations, even though it was kind of said sometimes that, oh, you know, I was told, like in front of the class, I'm going to give I'm given less homework, not reasons why, but they're saying you can only do the even problems. I kind of wish they told me that outside of class, not in class, because I don't want students to question why I'm given less homework because it doesn't seem fair and no one, luckily, the students never said anything to my face or asked me why. You know, it's kind of nice that, you know, students actually kind of didn't invade personal privacy in- in that manner, but I had that plan til- I mean, basically it was a 504 plan and I had it until, you know, middle school, middle school, I just was doing a lot better. And, you know, my parents always supported me. My mom supported me with homework a lot.
Then when it came to high school, I actually feel like I was completely independent when it came to doing homework and everything. I think that the 504 plan helped and my mom supporting me in middle school helped. Finally, I was able to gain the independence to do the work on my own, and I can still do that today, but I just really needed the support. And that's something that I've learned with my disability is there is nothing wrong with me.
I just learn differently. I know some people have some people don't like the term I learn differently or I have a learning disability. You know, I'm open about having a learning disability, but I'm so open that I'm just… I just learn differently as well and that, you know, I just needed a different kind of classroom, module, or environment and luckily I was given it and my mom luckily worked at the school system, so she knew a lot of resources and people to connect me to. But I realize that that's kind of a it's definitely a privilege and that not a lot of parents and students have that. And so, you know, it's really important if you're, you know, if you see your child struggling may not be because sometimes we say that kids are lazy or something or they don't want to do the work. It could be because it's very difficult and maybe they need tutoring or they need those resources.
So I always tell, you know, I always try to affirm to parents, you know, try to find resources and try to always be a strong advocate. And so then that can be frustrating because sometimes the school system's not open to that. Sometimes they don't want to test students or the resources aren't there. But and that's unfortunate. But sometimes parents have to be hard advocates for their children like my mom was. So that is one thing that I really learned is that and I was involved in disability advocacy and when I joined Best Buddies in high school, which is really exciting, I'm actually on the Young Leaders Council for them this year, which is really exciting. But I first joined that organization was the first organization I've ever heard of and it was the only one on my campus. I went to Walnut High School that was addressing how to create, you know, a place where people with disabilities and people without disabilities can interact. It's like destroying the classroom segregation, which kind of exists. And so it was a first time I was, you know, in a space where it was open about disability and I again, wasn't sure about my disability. That didn't come out until later. I didn't know much about it. And so that was such a great organization. I loved how it made me feel, made me feel safe, made me feel positive, and it made me feel no different than any other student, which is what was really exciting about it. And I only joined because I wanted to support people with disabilities and I was just kind of curious what it was about. And the title Best Buddies sounded like a great title to meet friends.
So then, you know, I graduated high school and then I went to Cal Poly Pomona. You know, fast forward my first year, I kind of was just doing my own thing. I joined student government trying different things. And then, you know, luckily in student government I got appointed to a committee called the Access and Compliance Team. And really those first two years, I really wasn't doing anything with disability. I forgot that that was kind of a passion of mine that I had in high school, and it wasn't a huge passion. It was just something that I really enjoyed doing, but when I joined that, I just opened my opened my mind to so many different things that the campus could be doing better, like every campus, every space, honestly. And so I got to meet different people like my mentor. The first meeting was I met Cathy Whittaker, who's been a huge mentor that I've known for like four years or three years at this point who taught me all about disability and accessibility and all this stuff that she was working on. And so it was a huge game changer. For me. And then after that I joined the Disability Access and Disability Alliance, which is there. It's abbreviated for ADA and I joined it my third year. And I really didn't know what I was going to do and I was really excited oh and to reit- or to explain kind of like an ERG, like an employee resource group in a company. That's basically what it was. It was an, it was an affinity group. So it supported students, staff and faculty across the board. And again, I didn't know I had a disability at that time, but I just joined and I was incredibly new to it and they had a great opportunity for me to get involved right away.
They had something called the Unity Luncheon, which is like this award show that the university does, where they award students from different communities like underrepresented communities and a staff or a faculty member. And that year it rotates so a different affinity group will plan it that year.
So that year it happened to land on the ADA and the president was looking for a co-chair and I wasn't interested because I didn't want to take on something too much, especially since I was new. But I thought that this was a great opportunity calling and I decided to do it. And I got to an all by accessible event planning and planning a university wide event. And I got to connect with Lydia X. Z… Lydia X. Z. Brown, which is, they're a huge disability advocate. And we actually had them, we flew them out to be a speaker. So I actually had got to have dinner with them, which is a huge opportunity. I've never been around a disability advocate that was that, you know, we're now. So it was incredibly exciting. And I think the more I got involved in disability advocacy, the more I kept asking questions like I hear about IEPs, I hear about 504s…I had one of those. And so I asked my parents, you know, I had a 504 plan, did I have a disability and, again, they never told me what my disability was, but they told me that, you know, I just had attention issues and the 504 plan was to help me with that.
So that was kind of the journey of me learning about my disability and my mental health was always a little it was it was shaky when I was a kid, but as I grew up, it got better. But then, towards my, was it, actually it was that year, actually that year where I was planning the unity luncheon, I started having huge mental health problems. I was really depressed, I was engaging in self-harm and I was having suicidal thoughts, all of that and there was a lot going on with my family and I was in my first relationship. There was a lot of different things going on and it was the first for everything. Especially since I identify as queer it was my first relationship as well as my first same gender relationship. So, it was a lot of different things that were going on.
So, I don't think I was handling my emotions well because it was very overwhelming. So, I end up taking the semester off and then I learned that, you know, I had like, you know, severe depression and anxiety at times, something I never experienced before. Like I said, I experienced it growing up, but never to that degree. And now I know something. Now I know when something hits me at left field, I know how to deal with it better. Or I set boundaries or I journal, a lot of different things I can try to support myself.
And so that is kind of how I became a kid, to someone with a disability myself that didn't know for a long time, and an advocate.
00:10:50:18 Jillian Curwin: Wow. There's so much of your story that I want to touch on. I think, though, first, especially as someone who you said you knew that you said you've learned differently, but didn't necessarily identify as disabled until relatively later in your life. So I'm curious to know then, how do you define being disabled?
00:11:15:12 Zane Landin: I define being disabled as knowing that I have some form of limitation, but that limitation doesn't define me and it's not a limitation, unless someone makes it. And so what I mean by that is we can see it.
The way I see a disability is a limitation, but I don't think that that limitation 100% holds you back. A lot of times, in my opinion, it's society that's holding you back. And it's society that is, you know, not accommodating. And because of… and because they're not accommodating, that's what's holding you back the most. Not necessarily your disability. So I think if we can provide the appropriate accommodations, universal design, all that stuff, that there will be less barriers and it will be easier for people with disabilities to navigate life instead of having to deal with all the barriers that you know that they have to deal with. If it's cultural, societal, or if it's just physical barriers that they have to, you know, have to work around. And so that's how I identify as a I had to identify with myself as having a disability. It is limitation, but I just kind of tell myself and I believe it, that I just think differently. I learn differently. And every single person, every other, every other person in the world learns and thinks and reads differently. I just need a little more additional support and time. That's how I see it.
00:12:34:10 Jillian Curwin: You touched on something there that I agree [with]. And I'm also I'll say that I might have talked about this before in a previous episode that I've always been a little person. There was no moment where I was nondisabled, and then I was. But, until relatively recently for me and I'm saying within the past, I'd say year and a half to two years max, I never saw being a little person necessarily as being disabled. For me, I knew it was a disability. But when, you know in school when make getting accommodations made, I also had the 504 for physical accommodations. It was because I was a little person. It wasn't clicking for me that, oh, it's because I'm disabled.
And you touch on something about like the limitations put on us, whether they're visible, invisible, societal, or environmental. A lot of them, though, do come from outside forces, and they're not necessarily our bodies themselves that are the limitation in some circumstances. And I think that's kind of how I see it as well. At least for me as a little person, it's that a lot of where the limitations come from and a lot of the boundaries and obstacles that I have to…I don't like to say overcome. I guess like deeds are not created by my body or not from my body. See, I think it's interesting that, you know, it's a way of looking at disability. I think a lot of people do look at it, but it's never really discussed. I think when non-disabled people think of disability, in the end their limitations, it's always their body and they don't think to look at the bigger picture.
00:14:13:24 Zane Landin: You know, I actually was having a conversation with someone today, and I brought up that. It's not someone's choice. To label them as having a disability or not. And I understand. I think it's a person's choice and it's how they view themselves like you can under under legality.
You can have a disability. But I think it's your choice if you want to identify that way. And I think that's important. There are plenty of people who like yourself. You didn't see yourself as having a disability or you didn't see it as a disability. I think that's okay for some people, but they can still recognize they have it. But then I question why they think that way. Because are you not wanting to connect to disability? Because disability is so stigmatized and shamed?
So I always wonder what people motivations are, because it could be that, but I always encourage people to just determine for themselves what will work best for them and how they identify. And hopefully they can come to a place where they don't have to experience shame and the societal pressures that they have to deal with because they can. And there have been plenty of times where, you know, a huge initiative I was working on, my university was trying to start a disability cultural center. And there's a lot of people that don't believe disability is a culture because it's a medical condition, which is, in my opinion, very based on the, you know, the medical model of disability and pretty traditional one. Even people with disabilities themselves would tell me that, you know, disability is not a culture. It's coming from people with disabilities because and it doesn't necessarily mean that they are anti-disability, but they just have grown up with these thoughts and biases that even comes out with their disability, which is kind of, I think it's pretty interesting.
00:15:52:23 Jillian Curwin: Yeah. And I, you know, speaking for myself, like I never really saw it as a culture. I saw I had my little person community growing up, but outside that I really wasn't involved in the greater disability community, really wasn't aware of it.
So for me, like little person was a community. It may not have been a culture that I recognized, but it was like that I had that community, I had those people to go to. But even within that community, I felt, and sometimes do still, still do feel that as a community we're not identifying as disabled, which for the individual, I think it's fine. But I think that if we want to seek these protections that are supposed to be given to us, and if we want these accommodations made that are, you know, under the 504, and IEP, or the ADA that we have to there has to be some acceptance to at least say I'm disabled, you know, because the world, you know, it just means that there are some things that we can't do or do differently. And we do need to have these accommodations made.
00:16:57:15 Zane Landin: Oh, I agree completely. And I know some people with disabilities that are encouraged to be hustlers and not seek accommodations and that they can they can do it, which is a little interest. Unfortunate, but there was a whole discussion in a group I was in where are we going to define it as disability or just learn differently? And so, again, personal preference, I think it's fine for someone to say I just learn differently and I don't see it as a disability, but coming from a structural standpoint or systemic, it needs to be disability so that people can identify what they have and seek the appropriate accommodations that they need. So I completely agree with that.
00:17:35:02 Jillian Curwin: Right. And, you know, you're talking about like your 504 journey and when you're, you know, like my, you know, also like me, my mom and my dad made sure that those accommodations were met when I was little. And at some point and, you know, and and then in fifth grade, I was kind of as we were preparing to transition to middle school where my elementary school merged with another. It was the idea that I should go introduce myself to these kids at the other school so they wouldn't be completely shocked at seeing a little person because as far as I know, I'm still the only little person in my town where I grew up. But kind of be… and I not looking back on this negatively, but I think just kind of like, like kind of like being a teaching moment for them where like I'm the exhibit and saying, hey, this is my disability where I shouldn't necessarily had to have do to do that. But I see at least where the intention, the good intent was. But I think that that was like kind of like the end of people of… I'm trying to phrase this correctly…
I think at that point it was like, okay, I kind of had to learn to then be my own advocate, at least in school, and make sure that my accommodations are being met. My parents kind of definitely took a step back and said, you know, we'll support you if it's not getting done, but if you want something done differently or if you want some… if something's not getting done but you're aware of that, you need to step up for yourself because at the end of the day, you know, when I graduate, they're not going to be there every day to make sure that in college things are accessible or in my workplace.
So I think, you know, we've both had similar journeys in that way, making sure that and like watching our parents advocate for us to learn how to advocate for ourselves.
00:19:22:17 Zane Landin: Yeah. I think it's I think it was, you know, a great thing. But also just hearing your story, it's like this just can sound like emotionally exhausting, though, to have to always explain over and over again who you are, what your disability is instead of just this is just who I am.
I don't need to explain my disability to anyone. You know, it just, I am who I am. I don't need to be explaining who I am or not. Everyone has to say that they are queer or that they identify as a certain race or their ethnic background. And I think we have to be respectful to people's boundaries if they want to disclose that or not. But still open up the space because disability disclosure is really low and hopefully one day people will feel comfortable enough to openly talk about it.
00:20:09:08 Jillian Curwin: Why do you think disability disclosure is so or why… It's sometimes a hard question to answer. I'm thinking just like specifically, like I know on every job application there's that voluntary disclosure form and I myself struggle with how to answer because I don't want to say no. But I know that the only people are going to say I don't wish to answer are still those people who don't… who are visibly, invisibly, physically, mentally, intellectually, emotionally disabled like no, no non-disabled person is going to say, I don't wish to answer to like…
00:20:44:24 Zane Landin: Exactly, that is such… that is really true. And to go back because I forgot to answer just one point, I do think really important things about the disability community is that they have to advocate for themselves and that when sometimes an instance happens that sexist or racist, you might expect to have a community supporting you sometimes, not all the time, but people will be aware of what that is and that it's wrong. But when it comes to ableism, people don't know what that is. They don't know how to react. Sometimes it's like push[ed] under the rug. And so it is interesting and sad that, you know, people with disabilities have had to advocate for themselves just for basic survival.
And it's a lot of pressure on your shoulders, to have to do that. And even when you see, like so many people with disabilities are entrepreneurs, it's like, wow, because they take ownership of their own finances because they're not being hired or something. And that's so much about people with disabilities having to be independent, not just living independently, but having to do so many things for themselves because society doesn't just understand it or they're against it. And so to answer your question, I always say I have a disability on my job application. And if I don't get the job if that's the reason why then I'm happy I didn't get the job, then I don't want to work for a place that, I don't want to work for a place that wouldn't want me just because I have a disability and they don't even know what the disability is to begin with.
00:22:03:20 Jillian Curwin: Right.
00:22:04:07 Zane Landin: Because it's not. You know, contrary to popular belief, you'll actually make more money working with the disability community, and it's actually not a lot of money to provide accommodations. People think it's thousands of dollars of technology. It's it's not sometimes sometimes that's not it. Sometimes it's many other things. But even if you have to spend more money for your employees, you're still getting the best people. And you're getting such a diverse you have you're creating a diverse company and culture. And that's that's what I would want at the end of the day.
And so that's kind of how I view it that, you know, if I don't get the job and if it's because of that reason then I'm happy that I would steer it in a different direction, like a redirections. But I understand why people are very hesitant because, you know, even in the workplace, disclosure is very low. Let's say you didn't disclose and you're in the workplace and you decide to disclose later. I understand why people don't because if they have an invisible disability and, you know, they have this opportunity to, you know, kind of not disclose. Why would they disclose if there's a chance that they're going to be viewed differently? I'm not saying that that's a good thing. I would love people with disabilities to you know, disclose that they have one. But you never know how people are going to react. There's always a fear. And I think even if you live in the most inclusive place in the universe, I still think that there's going to be a fear of people are going to start seeing me differently. And I mean, it's okay if people see you differently and they're understanding to you and, you know, you're to them, it's a new identity to them, not to you. But to them it's like, “Oh, I see them differently.”
Maybe that's not necessarily a bad thing. But there are people that will view you worse, or they may pity you, or they may treat you differently in a bad way. And so I think that they're all, you know, coupled with all those fears and maybe…I think that's actually it. You know, I think that because of all that. I don't blame people who don't want to disclose because there's so much to think about. And there's that those those fears of the potential of you losing a job or being viewed differently or being discriminated against when for some people, maybe they would just rather not do it. But, you know, one day I hope they can.
00:24:14:04 Jillian Curwin: Same. And like, for me, I was told when like applying for internships in college and an advisor was like looking over my resumé and I brought this up with her and they told me not to disclose and to try to not make it obvious on my resumé that I was a little person. I don't know. And I tried. I have old resumes. And even relatively recently, up until, like getting this job, like, it really wasn't until I have the job I have now that I really did try to I didn't necessarily try to hide it, but I didn't disclose it in a way that I do now, where now you look at my resume and it's very obvious that I'm a little person. You read my cover letters and I make it clear that I'm a little person and kind of addressing that out front because, either way, I felt like I wasn't sometimes getting in the room and I don't know if it was because I was disclosing that I was a little person or something else. But at least it took that question out of my mind of like, well, if they if I'm not telling them, they don't know. So if I'm not getting in the room, it's not because I'm a little person, but then it would always be what happens if I get in the room and they find out and that's when they find out. Because I can't hide it. I can't. I'm…. So it's always that like back and forth tug of war that I've played and now that I've gotten to the place where I'm really comfortable disclosing it, I, you know, it's kinda like what you say, like if they don't want me, and it could be for something else, but there's always going to be that thought in the back of your head that they're not going to want you because you're disabled. And I don't want to work at a place that isn't going at least give me a chance to at least give me an interview to open, you know, and see and let me, you know, let me answer any questions you have. I will answer what it's like, questions about being a little person: What accommodations may or may not need to be made? Just what are my limitations? I will answer that and then let you make an informed decision. But, it's like hard trying to just get into the room sometimes.
00:26:19:15 Zane Landin: Yeah. Wow. And and I also don't I think people have good intentions when they tell you to not put anywhere on your resume. I don't think that they're telling you because they want to shame disability further. I mean, it definitely will stem from that. But I don't think those are their intentions. But I think they want you to succeed in you know, I even hear therapists that say, “Oh, you know, even getting a diagnosis is the end of the world because you will be passed up for jobs and employment.” I mean, at this point, you don't have to disclose, though, but I have heard that throughout my life from different people that you don't want diagnosis, you don't want you don't want, you know, to disclose any of this stuff in the workplace because it will, it will kind of ruin your career.
I'm so happy that I'm you know, that's not normal. And we don't see that happen a lot, but it definitely still happens, all the saneism and ableism still happens. But. Yeah. But I mean, if you hear that stuff growing up, I can imagine it be very difficult to disclose as well.
So it's not even just the fears from society, but what you or what you're hearing. Like you said at the beginning, you know, environmental barriers and just what you've been not necessarily taught, but what you just hear from people.
00:27:33:19 Jillian Curwin: Right. And I want to reiterate, and I think you said, that a lot of people who are giving me advice about disclosing and not disclosing or just like about asking for accommodations or kind of when saying not to and just trying to figure it out were coming with the best intentions. I think, though, looking back, hindsight is 20/20 and, especially in coming into my own advocacy and really educating myself about the disability rights movement and what it really means to be disabled and what's the work that still needs to be done, I see how, despite the good intentions, how harmful that advice could be.
00:28:11:00 Zane Landin: Yeah.
00:28:14:03 Jillian Curwin: I did want to ask, and you touched on it a little bit at the beginning when you were telling your story, you said you didn't necessarily you weren't necessarily aware that you were disabled until later on in life. So what was that moment or what was that process like for you as you were coming to terms with this new identity from?
00:28:36:06 Zane Landin: Well, relieving, because the whole time I had no idea what was going on. I always thought there was just something wrong with me or I was, you know, quote unquote, slower than other kids. And so that's why I think a diagnosis is incredibly powerful, despite what maybe people think about it. Because for some people it may not do anything for them, but at least it gives you that reason like, oh, this is millions of people experience this. It's actually completely normal. It's not something that only I experience or something like that or I'm I'm not dumb, I'm not stupid because that's stuff I've always thought and still do. Now I try my best not to think that way. I don't know if it directly came from that, but maybe it did. But I second guess myself a lot when it comes to decision making. And so, I always try to tell myself to be confident and see where I've come and, you know, look at everything from a big picture standpoint. So it was definitely, like I said, huge really, any moment because now I could actually identify a certain way. I could actually look and see what accommodations are out there that were possible even though I had them as a kid.
But even when I was in university, I wasn't looking for accommodations and that's when I thought I need to because I didn't know I had a disability, right? And so I just being able to use like the disability services during like my final two semesters and it was so helpful. It was incredibly helpful. It made school a lot less stressful. There was, of course, still stress being a university student, but it helps so much. It helps so much. And without learning that about myself. I would have never gone to the disability services, but there's still a lot of misinformation about disability services and disability resource centers. You just definitely have to just ask questions about it because there are plenty of them that you don't necessarily have to have a disability to use them. Let me explain what I mean.
You can be questioning if you have a disability. I think I have a learning disability. I think I have a mental health condition. And they may even provide you a stipend to go get tested somewhere. So, you may not already have to have a diagnosis like, oh, it obviously isn't for me because I don't have a diagnosis and that was mine. That doesn't mean all of them. I definitely know. Not all of them are like that.
00:30:44:04 Jillian Curwin: Okay.
00:30:44:18 Zane Landin: There are some, I think, that will provide you a stipend so you can actually go get tested. And they gave you accommodations while you were getting tested so you wouldn't miss out while you had to be really evaluated, because you hear all about the horror stories where people have to get retested, reevaluated because their 504 paperwork is too old, as if the disability just went away. And so it's… I love that, you know, disability centers are making it more equitable that way instead of people who have to pay for it themselves or they have to pay for it themselves, and they also have to wait while they're getting tested so they don't get accommodations while they're getting tested, which can take months and months. So it was great that my disability center was able to do services like that. So, I always say, even if you don't have a disability, I would just go and talk to the Disability Resource Center just in case. You never know what kind of resources they offer that you may be able to utilize or get tested if you think you have a disability or something that you need support in
00:31:38:15 Jillian Curwin: I'm so happy to hear that you had such a positive experience with your disability services. So, my… first, I went to two universities for undergrad. I transferred after my first semester, sophomore year. So, at my first school, disability services was very accommodating, very helpful, very easy to get to. [I] could just walk in if I needed, if I had a question, if I needed something. They were great. And at my second university, it was the complete opposite and I could never understand why. But it was, just again, like kind of having to continuously prove that I was disabled and that I needed these accommodations made where I'm like you… I walk in and you can see the disability and dealing with professors who were not willing to make the accommodations, even if I had the paperwork in front of them, but not feeling supported by disability services to say, “Hey, they're not listening to me.” I didn't feel like that they would support me. So, it kind of reflects like what you said, that there are some really good services and I'm, again, I'm really happy that you had one and where I was my first part of my undergrad career, fantastic. And I do think that, you know, even with the less than positive experience I had my second university, I still needed to go. And they were still able to, when I had to reach out to some other people outside of the Disability Services Office to get what I needed. But I was able to get the accommodations that I needed to succeed and to graduate.
00:33:16:00: Zane Landin: That's great to hear. And I really think the, you know, disability service or center, Resource Center, can really make or break your college experience because if you don't get those accommodations. It may be it may be incredibly too hard for you. And, you know, that may be why a lot of, you know, people with disabilities don't graduate university or high school because they're not given these accommodations. And in college, you have to fight for yourself and you may have to really fight with the university. And I hear that a lot too, the beliefs of professors. That's a huge thing. Like a lot of people I talked to have issues have had issues with professors about not giving them their accommodations. But luckily, I didn't have I didn't have that experience. I never understood why that was the case. And professors not wanting to give you their accommodations, the university needs to be clear that that is illegal and that they cannot be doing that. And. I don't think they want a huge lawsuit.
I'm just saying, like you said, that could happen. And, you know, your university does not want that to happen. So they need to be clear on this stuff and it's just morally wrong to do.
00:34:23:04 Jillian Curwin: Exactly. And it's just I know I kind of sometimes I think reflects because I'm like going through that. It's like, I don't want to have to go through this in the real world. And then I think that's kind of like going back to like the disclosure and choosing whether or not to I think some people, if they've had the negative experience, are like, I'm not going to disclose because it was such a hassle and in college to just get basic accommodations met. So I think again, it's like, really? Interesting and frustrating how different places treat disability and for no rhyme or reason why there is such a difference. It's just really kind of like a little bit of the luck of like where you found yourself.
00:35:04:16 Zane Landin: Yeah. Well, I agree. Definitely.
00:35:09:00 Jillian Curwin: So going back to finding, you know, your disabled identity, was this around the time that you really like because you said you had done some work with disability groups before you really identified as disabled. So when did you really, though, come into your advocacy and your identity as a disabled advocate?
00:35:30:09 Zane Landin: Oh, that's an interesting question. I mean, when I found out, it was probably like my third or fourth year and at that point, I felt like a stronger advocate because. I actually resonated with the community this time, and one of the things I loved is so identify as Hispanic and queer.
I'll be honest with you. At my university in Santa Fe, at the university, it could be anything. I wasn't necessarily fully accepted as a Hispanic person or a queer person, usually because the queer space was very cliquey. And the Hispanic space, I think, didn't take me seriously because I was light skinned and I didn't speak Spanish. So there's a lot of references I didn't understand. But we have to remember that, you know, being Hispanic is a lot more than just those traditions. There's a lot more to it than that. And I think if you're going to take someone less seriously as Hispanic, because those things, in my opinion, is racist. That definitely comes from racism, in my opinion. And it was unfortunate that I felt that way.
But when I joined the Access and Disability Alliance, I felt so comfortable. Like, I felt so welcomed. Even as someone who didn't have a disability, at the time that I didn't have it. I didn't know I had it. So people didn't think I had one either. And so, I still felt so like welcomed as like an ally because at that point I identify as an ally and then it morphed into being an advocate and then becoming, like you said, a disabled advocate, which so it kind of just kept growing and skyrocketing to where I felt more sure of myself and my abilities to be an advocate.
00:37:09:23 Jillian Curwin: And what type of advocacy do you do, are you most passionate about, in the disability space?
00:37:15:13 Zane Landin: Oh, gosh. I mean, I haven't been able to do too much about policy and stuff. I did… I did intern with NCIL or the National Council for Independent Living. That was a really cool opportunity and I've done a lot of volunteer work for a lot of different organizations like Best Buddies and the National Center for Learning Disabilities. And it just, everywhere I go, I try to bring up disability. But what I always love doing, which stems from the work I do, is anything to do with communication, media and storytelling. Anything to do with that and connect it to disability advocacy is what I very much am passionate about. And I know it doesn't sound like it's advocacy, but to me, people can be protesting, people can be doing that side of the work but I kind of like to be doing, you know, the writing and the reading and pushing the message out there because that, I think, is where we'll see a lot of cultural change shift. You can you can definitely change stuff with protesting but, once you start seeing people with disabilities portrayed as just regular people on TV or disability issues are represented in the mainstream media in a very positive way. And I mean positive as in they're not pitied. It's not inspiration porn. It's just regular news about, you know, disability issues, where you have people with disabilities who are on panels on CNN or at Fox News, whatever it is that they can openly talk about disability in a healthy, productive way instead of it being kind of contorted like it is sometimes. It's sometimes…it's pity, sometimes it's violence. A lot of things with disability is very weird. Like, I think the way that the media portrays disability is really weird because it's like from so many different angles. It's never from a good healthy angle where it's like just portray them as regular people, which is exactly what they are. All they want to do is be with people. They want to integrate with society. They want to work, they want to live. They want to live a life just like everyone else. So it's interesting how people displays are painted in the media sometimes. If it's, like I said, some inspiration point, sometimes it's like pity. And so I would love for that's the work I would love to see and what I always try and do. So I always love to write. I wrote an article that came out today on Entrepreneur about, you know, people who are larger: How do we make spaces more accessible in the workplace, more inclusive to people who are larger, who need accommodations, or who just don't want to feel ashamed of their body in the workplace because of certain circumstances or barriers. So I'm always trying to find ways to connect storytelling and disability together because I think that's where we're going to see a lot of cultural change.
00:39:47:05 Jillian Curwin: I love so much of what you just said. I agree 150% that I think storytelling and having accurate representation in the media is so important along with the protesting. And because our stories are not being told and they're not being taught. And, you know, I never learned about the disability rights movement in school. I learned a lot about it through watching Crip Camp, which is not even two years old at this point, or maybe a little over two years old. I can't… I don't remember exactly when it came out, but I, you know, like that's where my disability rights history. That's like really where my education started because it didn't come from it didn't come in a textbook. And my teachers, I don't know if they knew about it, they could have learned about it while watching that documentary. And I think that, you know, in the mainstream media, either a lot of disabled characters, fictional characters are portrayed, like you said, like kind of as inspiration porn or they're not really portrayed as real people. And then in the news, there'll be conversations about disability that aren't including disabled people. And then there will be, overt or not necessarily overt, but like there'll be numerous times where people on both sides of the aisle will be ableist and nobody calls them out on it. And that, you know, is just kind of accepted. Whereas if that was being discriminatory in some other way towards another type of person, I feel like it would have been immediately called out. And yet with disability, it's not.
00:41:35:05 Zane Landin: That's exactly what I kind of meant when I was talking before about if something racist or sexist happens there are people that will be there ready to fight for you. If there's a…a situation where, you know, a person is violated or something, and they're a certain race that may be talked about more than someone with a disability. Even so, I mean, oh my goodness, the Black Lives Matter movement, if you look at the stats, it's like, you know, black people are more likely to be targeted if they also have a disability. I didn't hardly heard anything about that during the BLM riots. I mean… and so it seems like just what is. Always like, like treat… treated as like this invisible layer, even though it could explain a lot more if we start talking about it, you know, like I again the Black Lives Matter movement. I didn't hear a lot about, you know, a lot of people who are targeted have disabilities. And that's a huge. A huge- How do I say this? It's a huge portion of the movement that wasn't talked about. And I think that we may be able to understand more the problems of police brutality on a deeper level of it's not it's not just race, it's it's also disabilities, also mental health. So, that's my opinion that the intersectionality is what I'm trying to get at. The intersectionality is so important because a lot of times when I see this disability and intersectionality will be ignored along with other identities that are kind of like the underrepresented of the underrepresented. And so that's kind of those are my kind of thoughts on that, too.
00:43:09:00 Jillian Curwin: Yeah. And I think it's this lack of understanding that disability is very intersectional. You know, disability includes people of all sexualities, all races, all genders, all ethnicities. It encompasses all of that. And disability doesn't discriminate. You know, you can enter this community we're the world's largest minority at any time. So to not talk about it, it's, you know, you could find yourself in this community and and a lot of people be like, I had no idea, I didn't know, I didn't realize. And it's like, well, we've been saying this for how many years? And, you know, you should you shouldn't have to be in a place where you join the community in order to, like, start listening and realizing the situation.
00:43:54:21 Zane Landin: Yeah. And another thing about disability that is so interesting when it comes to intersectionality there and the uniqueness of it. I mean, yeah, I will say that. Well, let me start. Yeah, I feel the disability identity can happen at any point though and not just you, not just you learning that you have a disability, but there can be something that develops then happens where you develop a disability that happens in your fifties or sixties or your twenties, you never know. So that doesn't happen with other identities. I mean, I think I mean, I think it actually can when you like when it comes to like queer identity that some people don't realize that they were queer until either 30 or 40 and now they identify as queer. But I actually wrote an article about how like, you know, you know, being queer and disability, they're actually very similar. I mean, they have different experiences, but there's a lot of similarities there with how they've been treated and how they've been viewed especially when it comes to institutionalization, especially since, you know, being gay was considered a mental health condition at one point. And so I think especially looking at disability pride movement aligns very much with, you know, LGBTQ Pride Month. And I'm not saying that I know people think that Disability Pride takes away from it or they stole from it. No, it's because I think they work together so well and because they have very similar experiences and even sexual stigma that that happens all the time in the disability community as well. So that happens to a lot of queer couples. So I just want to add that.
00:45:19:21 Jillian Curwin: No, I didn't know that. So thank you for educating me that I didn't know that it was kind of seen as us as the disability pride like taking away from gay pride because they are back to back. I didn't really know Disability Pride Month was a thing to be that is celebrated every July until relatively recently. And you know, I think, what's interesting with work was seeing, you know, everything turning rainbow for June and then like July 1st comes around and things kind of go back to normal. But then like Disability Pride Month, by a lot of companies, hasn't been acknowledged from what I've seen at all. So it's like. We're like, we're here.
00:46:05:06 Zane Landin: Oh, my goodness. I completely agree. Last year I interned at GM and I got the opportunity to intern here again. I got to lead a Twitter campaign called GM Voice, which they do to highlight underrepresented communities. And I got to do one for Disability Pride Month. And so we featured like eight people from the company that had disabilities, which was so exciting. It was so exciting because I hadn't seen any company really do that that didn't specialize in disability. I mean, of course, I saw disability organizations that were highly into disability pride month but that makes sense. And that would look really interesting if they didn't. But, for a company that doesn't specialize in disability rights, it was nice to be a part of a company that cared enough to be inclusive to do that and even see the content that's going to be coming out for GM, for Disability Pride Month, that I'm involved in it, so it's a lot of stuff and so I wish I would see more companies do that. And a lot of them were very loud and proud when it comes to LGBTQ Pride or Pride Month in June. So it's very interesting when some of them are quiet. I even saw Xbox recently had a post where they said that they're celebrating Disability Pride Month for the first time. And I was like, Oh?
00:47:10:00 Jillian Curwin: For the first time.
00:47:10:17 Zane Landin: I think I saw it. I… don't quote me on that. I know it's in the video, but if people look it up, I think I saw Xbox was celebrating Disability Pride Month for the first time, which is interesting because I don't know that's the whole thing because I'm not sure. Because I know Microsoft owns Xbox, I think. So, I know Microsoft is huge with accessibility. So, I don't know, maybe it's just Xbox they were talking about. But, you know, just seeing stuff like that come out and it better late than never. But it's also unfortunate that it was so late, you know, I mean. And so...
00:47:38:08 Jillian Curwin: Right.
00:47:39:16 Zane Landin: I'm hoping to see more companies push forward and I think the pandemic really opened the conversation with disability. And I think because people with disabilities have had to experience this type of isolation for so long like people were experiencing during the pandemic, of course, in a very different way. But they were… they still had to experience, the isolation. And it's like, I think that disability rights were pushed a little bit forward during the pandemic, but it's obviously a lot that needs to be done. It's unfortunate it's a pandemic that has to bring light to an issue.
00:48:13:24 Jillian Curwin: Right. And I guess I think people are talking about it more at least I've at least found more people talking about it. But, you know, I think what's happening does kind of reflect that being disabled, regardless if there's a pandemic or not, can sometimes feel very, very isolating. And that you do feel like you're the only one experiencing this. And I found that too, and especially with the advocacy. And so I'm wondering, I kind of looked right into it. Really, the question I wanted to ask you is, as you were finding your voice and using it and telling these stories, like, were you ever afraid? Or was there ever like any hesitation as to maybe I shouldn't do this, maybe no one will care, no one will listen. Like, was there any doubt there?
00:49:03:02 Zane Landin: I mean, yeah, all the time. Even as I was figuring things out, I didn't know how to even say it, how to communicate it. But like I said, since I was in a space, I was so supportive, I had no doubt in my mind that they were going to be welcoming and understanding to this new identity of mine. But oh, there are definitely some places I would never say anything about my disability because I've been in spaces where I just felt uncomfortable and I would have felt even more uncomfortable talking about something like that. And so it's unfortunate, but I've definitely had some hesitation and that's why environment is so important of where you live. And it's unfortunate sometimes where you live in a place where it may be inaccessible or have those anti-disability views, um, but hopefully you can get to a place or find some sort of community yourself or an online community that can support you.
00:49:56:15 Jillian Curwin: For sure, and I think I definitely found that for me. And I think it was that because I guess, you know, like as you're finding your identity at the same time you're finding this community. So what was that like for you?
00:50:10:16 Zane Landin: Gosh. And the thing is. Is it still like a little difficult to find people with disabilities that I can be friends with, mostly because I work from home for one full time. So it's hard to get out there. But I sometimes feel alone in this space. I don't know if you feel that way, but I do. Because, even as a disability advocate, sometimes I'm like, I feel like I'm the only one in the room and the burden falls on me because just because, like and then once people know that I do disability work [it’s], “Oh, Zane, what do you think about this? What do you think about this for Disability Pride Month?” And I'm like, “I don't 100% know,” because I obviously don't know everything. And it would be nice if there were more advocates. But luckily again, there's so many people there that are engaging in disability work. But there were times where I feel like I was the only one voicing a concern about disability. And it was… I don't like feeling that way because you want to feel like the only one addressing something because if because not everyone fully understands it, then. So if you're not getting positive reception, you know, it's a little difficult. But if you had some people around, it would be less difficult. So it is hard, but I'm definitely trying to find more of a community where I can interact with people with disabilities and mental health.
And I… I did meet some really cool people, go through the Mental Health Youth Action Forum that I got to participate in, which was a program through Um. MTV. And it was it was actually [at] the White House…
So it was in May. And I got accepted in December. And so we did these… Sorry. I applied in December, got accepted in February. And we did a lot of these sessions online. Then we did the session in person or the forum in person for from Monday to Wednesday, May 16th through the 18th. And yeah, part of it, on Wednesday morning, a portion of that forum was at a live event where the 30 of us advocates who were chosen were kind of got to be, you know, engaging in this conversation. They had six people talk through, out of all of us advocates, but we got to enjoy and observe. And Selena Gomez, was there. Uh, Dr., Dr. Biden was there, Dr. Murthy. And then President Biden did show up at the end, not the event, but after the event, when we were like, waiting in the back room, there was just such a gap. It was so great to just hear about, you know, just this need to push for mental health and youth mental health and underrepresented mental health. And luckily there were a couple of people there that made sure to shine a light on neurodiversity and accessibility and universal design.
So it's very exciting to see something like that because I thought it was just going to be about mental health, even though mental health is disability. Except people tend to forget that. And I think there's a lot of mental health advocates that separate the two. When it's all it's all disability rights, in my opinion.
00:53:01:00 Jillian Curwin: Gotcha. That is amazing that you got to go. Congratulations on that. Congratulations on being in the same room with some pretty fantastic people and such an opportunity. And again like that idea of like the community coming together. And I think it kind of shows that when it does come together, it is so powerful. And, you know, I think you might have asked a little bit like, you know, it's like said… like it's expressed that like it can feel so isolating and feel like your only person in the room and it’s like, why am I doing this? And, you know, I felt that I felt that often. And I think sometimes I still do, but it's not necessarily, and this is where I still kind of separate the two. And I think this comes from my community and like growing up in the little person community where I sometimes feel that way in the disabled community that I'm the only little person in the room. And that is not to say that there are not some badass little people advocates out there who are doing the work. You know who you are, a lot of you have been on this show before, so I'm not talking to you. But I think that, at least in my community of disabled people, I am the only little person. And it's been a learning process for both of us, for both me and my friends, and trying to understand me, trying to understand their disability and their journey and their advocacy, and also trying then to get them to understand where I'm coming from because, a lot of times, you know, compared to them, I am ambulatory and a lot of my limits, again, are not my body, but it's rather society and the environment. So I think in those spaces, when talking about the problems, it's, you know, it still sometimes just feels isolating because what I'm going through they're not necessarily, but they have each other to talk to who understands it in a way that I never will.
00:55:03:12 Zane Landin: That is why, for me, I think advocacy and allyship are different. I don't think that they're the same. I think an advocate is someone who is pushing for disability rights across the board or even for a specific group. It could be, you know, for the blind community or whatever it is. But I think an ally is someone who is there to support all forms of disability and also recognize that they don't know everything. And so for me, I identify as an ally because I have my experiences as a disabled person, but they're not anyone else's. I mean, like, no, anyone else's experience is not mine. And so if they have a… if they have an experience as a blind person, sure, I may advocate on behalf of all people with disabilities for equal rights accessibility. As an ally, I'm here to learn and, learn and consume as much as I can to, learn about what the what the blind experience is or people who are blind, what they have to navigate. So I think we always have to be curious because disability is so it's such like a huge spectrum.
There's so many types of disabilities. And since stories are not represented as advocates and allies, we have to do a lot of work to make sure that we understand what the needs are for other people. Hope that makes sense.
00:56:16:19 Jillian Curwin: It does. And I think that there are two separate things. But I think and you know, us as disabled individuals, we do have to be both. I think we have to be advocates for ourselves and for our disabled community.
But we also have to be allies within the disabled community and within, you know, within your specific type of disability community like you. We have we have to be both.
00:56:37:05 Zane Landin: I agree. Yeah, great. Hmm.
00:56:41:03 Jillian Curwin: Um, who do you look up to?
00:56:44:19 Zane Landin: I look up to my mom. I will disclose that she passed away last year…
00:56:51:23 Jillian Curwin: I'm sorry.
00:56:52:14 Zane Landin: In January. It's okay. You know, grieving is a hard process and it happens different times. It's a… it's like a wave. It comes in waves. But that's a person I look up to. And she always, like I said, as I mentioned at the beginning, she was a huge advocate for me on my behalf and was supportive of any single thing I did. So I know now that I know some people may lose motivation when someone passes away, or they may do something or they'll stop doing something because it reminds them of that person. But for me, it makes me want to do it more because then I'm not just making myself proud, but I am making my mom proud and making sure that I leave her legacy behind in a good way. If that makes sense.
00:57:35:01 Jillian Curwin: It does. As someone who lost… I lost my father. It'll be almost seven years. It'll be seven years October. So I completely understand where you're coming from. And I can say in just talking to you now, and hearing you talk about your mother, I think you are. Definitely she's definitely proud of you and you're definitely creating such a positive legacy. So I think you should feel very proud of that.
00:57:58:07 Zane Landin: Thank you.
00:58:00:23 Jillian Curwin: Are there any questions I have not asked that you would like to answer?
00:58:05:11 Zane Landin: No, I love how intentional and deep your questions were. I think they were great. I would just say, I guess my final words would be, you know, just find that community. And it's hard if you don't know anyone that's like you. But there are so many communities online or organizations you can volunteer for. It sounds like it's work, but you'll definitely gain experience and connections that way. That was what helped me, and I love volunteering for organizations and helping any way I can. So that is one thing I will say is even if you feel alone, there's definitely a group out there that would love to have you.
00:58:41:10 Jillian Curwin: Love that. Where can people follow you?
00:58:45:19 Zane Landin: Oh, sure. I mean, my name is Zane Landin, and that's usually how you can find me on like LinkedIn and Instagram, mostly active on LinkedIn and Instagram. So definitely please follow me if you want to have a conversation, let's have a coffee chat on whatever it is you want to talk about advocacy or careers or internships, whatever it is. Or DEI. I love talking about it.
00:59:07:05 Jillian Curwin: I love that and I'll have links to those in the show notes. Have a coffee chat with Zane. That sounds fun. A final thing I do. It's kind of like an icebreaker, but I do it at the end. So I have five categories and I just want to hear your favorite in each one. Okay. First up, your favorite book.
00:59:30:13 Zane Landin: I loved the Warrior series growing up, which is like the series about Wildcats and it is like a spiritual book kind of I love the very first one. I think I remember what it was called, the very first one.
00:59:43:08 Jillian Curwin: Oh. Favorite TV show.
00:59:56:13 Zane Landin: I'm really torn on like. Avatar, The Last Airbender and Degrassi. I can't choose.
01:00:04:24 Jillian Curwin: Those are two good ones. So I see, I see why you can't choose. I totally get that. Favorite drink.
01:00:14:02 Zane Landin: I mean, I know so boring, but I always go for water. I know it's like the most boring thing, but it, it's my favorite.
01:00:23:08 Jillian Curwin: No! Love it. Favorite piece of advice you've ever given.
01:00:27:07 Zane Landin: I've ever given or I have received?
01:00:30:20 Jillian Curwin: Given first.
01:00:32:03 Zane Landin: Okay. I think the…. gosh, best piece of advice I've ever given someone? I try to tell people. I was asked this in a magazine feature recently that would I do anything differently? And sometimes I ask people if they would ever do things differently. And if they do, I question why exactly. And for me, the best advice I think I can give people is you know, every decision you make, try to make it. Because you believe in it and always pursue what you're passionate about. And whatever happens, try your best to make it a learning opportunity. And not to identify like you did something wrong. And I can learn from this because I did something wrong. No. Anything that you experience is a learning opportunity, and it's unfortunate that, you know, bad stuff is inevitably going to happen, but it definitely will prepare you how to deal with your emotions or what you don't want in the future. Maybe it's a certain friend, or if it's a relationship. And now, you know, that's not the relationship you were looking for. And so I always try and say that the universe is watching you. That's how I see it. And so whatever the universe brings to you, there's a reason why I know that. I know a lot of people do not agree with that. There are people who don't agree with that. But to me, it's a lot more comforting that things are designed. And I believe that we can we can shape our own destinies. But sometimes it's also nice to just let life, let yourself experience life and when things happen. Let them happen and see what happens.
And I always say be open to everything, a career or relationship, whatever it is. I mean, for me, I never thought I would go into automotive because like when I when I first heard about the internship, I was just I was just excited about the communication part. Then I was like, I don't know anything about cars. But now I love learning about them and I love the work that the General Motors does. It's just amazing. And so I always try to be open to everything and, you know, don't burn yourself out, but always look look for opportunities wherever you can and just try to have fun with it. I know that was a lot, it was probably like a lot of advice there.
01:02:41:20 Jillian Curwin: I love that. Love that. And the last one is favorite piece of advice you've ever received.
01:02:46:23 Zane Landin: Oh, okay. My mom would always tell me, just do the right thing. And that. Well, I know that doing the right thing and morality has gray area. You know in your heart what's the right thing and what's the right for you. And so always lead with a purpose and doing the right thing. And if it doesn't mean everything is going to go well, sometimes people get hurt, sometimes things don't go well, but always try to have those good intentions wherever you go and always lead with those good intentions. So even if you hurt someone, you're still there and you can still do things right, you can still be supportive and help them with whatever it is, because not everyone's going to like you. You're not always going to do the right thing, but always just try your best to. That's probably the best advice I've received.
01:03:34:11 Jillian Curwin: Love it. Zane, this has been such an amazing conversation. Thank you so much for taking the time to talk with me again. If you aren't following Zane, please follow him, have a coffee chat with him. Again, this has been such an eye opening conversation, so thank you so much for coming on the show.
01:03:51:05 Zane Landin: Yeah, of course. Thank you so much for having me again.
01:03:53:21 Jillian Curwin: Of course. The final, final thing I have to ask of you is just to do the sign off and to remind my listeners in your most fierce, most badass voice possible that height is just a number, not a limit.
01:04:08:03 Zane Landin: Height is just a number, not a limit.
01:04:11:04 Jillian Curwin: Always Looking Up is hosted by Jillian Curwin and edited and produced by Ben Curwin. Please make sure to rate review and subscribe and follow on Spotify so that you never miss an episode. Follow me on Instagram at Jill_Ilana and the podcast at AlwaysLookingUp.Podcast for updates and check out my blog, JillianIlana.com for more content about what it is like to be a little person in an average sized world. Thanks for listening. See you next week.
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