Julian Gavino On Protecting Our Identities While Building Our Brand

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Jillian Curwin: Hi everyone. Welcome to Always Looking Up. The podcast for no one is overlooked and height is only a number, never a limit. Hosted by me Jillian Curwin. Each week I will be having a conversation about what it is like to live in a world that is not necessarily designed for you.

In this week's episode, I sat down with Julian Gavino, known as the Disabled Hippie, Julian is a model and activist in the disability and transgender communities. We discussed the intersectionality of these two marginalized communities, what it takes to create a brand for ourselves, and the importance of working with companies that will protect our brand and identities. Let's get into it.

Hi, Julian.

Julian Gavino: Hi.

Jillian Curwin: How are you?

Julian Gavino: I'm okay. How are you?

Jillian Curwin: I'm good. Why…? Okay. Do you want to get into that or not?

Julian Gavino: I'm just busy. Tired, you know, like everybody else, you know, or well everybody else is. Yeah.

Jillian Curwin: Gotcha. Thank you so much for coming on. I literally just told you 2 seconds ago, but I'm… it's about damn time, on my end, to get you on. So I'm… finally happening it… I made it happen. You're here. I'm very excited to be talking with you. For my listeners, for my listeners who may not know, can you tell them a little bit about yourself?

Julian Gavino: Oh, my least favorite question, because it's hard to summarize, but the short story is that primarily I'm a model. I am trans and disabled. So pretty much everything I do is through that lens or like with those communities. So like I said, modeling, I do writing also public speaking and just kind of general activism. I work a lot with fashion brands as well, like helping them with adaptive stuff like adaptive design or even campaigns like as a consultant. So just kind of a lot of different things, but under all, under creative umbrella.

Jillian Curwin: I love that. And we're going to dove deep into some and a lot of it, I'm sure. But the first question I want to ask you is how do you define being disabled?

Julian Gavino: Hmm. Like in a poetic way or in like a literal…? Kind of..?

Jillian Curwin: However way you choose.

Julian Gavino: I kind of just think of it as I mean, it's this thing. It's different for everybody, but that somehow, you know, limits you or inhibits you, I guess, in some sort of way, you know, through illness or a genetic condition or something like that. And you just kind of make the best of what you do have or how you've adapted it. And you just you just live like that. I don't know. It's kind of, that's kind of how I think of it.

There's a lot of ways I could think of disability, but that's kind of just the the literal definition, I guess is like the inability to or difficulty doing some sort of physical or mental thing.

Jillian Curwin: Gotcha. I like that. And I think it's you know, you touched on like it's very personal, like it's very individualized, which is why I like to ask that question, because every answer is different, because while we're all under the umbrella of disability, we all have different disabilities. And even people of the same disability have different experiences. So I really like what you said there.

Julian Gavino: It's true. Yeah. Now, like, everybody has a different view of what that means, like obviously ranging from very negative to very positive to kind of in the middle. And typically, I'm fine with disabled people themselves making whatever like definition they have of it or how they view themselves. Because again, that's personal but not necessarily able bodied people having their own view of it.

Jillian Curwin: And they tend to do that a lot. I think they tend to, even when we explain how we identify what disability means to us, they try to still put either tell us like we're wrong or to try to like still put their non-disabled spin on it and they're not really listening to what we're saying.

Julian Gavino: Yeah, like my, my dad is like one of those people. Like, he'll be like, “Well, just because you have a disability doesn't mean you can't do X, Y, Z.” And I'll be like, “No, it literally does mean that though. Like that's the definition.” And, like I just told you, it's like the inability to do something like he does. So yeah.

Jillian Curwin: I think a lot of us have been told that have been told like, oh, we're, you know, we just do things differently or like there's nothing we can't do. And I think often it's been given, in some cases, like with good intent. But I think, and I kind of learned this recently, like there is that kind of like ableist mindset of like you just have to kind of be like us, you have to be like non-disabled, like don't let it like try not to when that's not necessarily the case. And it's like, no, being disabled means I can't. Like, there are some things, its in the definition, I can't do.

Julian Gavino: Yeah. I'm like, No, Dad. I can't become a runner one day like, like literally.

Jillian Curwin: Anyways, so, and I think I, I, I actually don't because I never, we never really talked about like you coming into your disability. Were you born disabled or did you have, I know the term was like life day, or like was there a moment like how did you how did you come into your disability?

Julian Gavino: So I wasn't born with a physical disability in the sense that I have now, currently, but I've always been chronically ill. So I have had like even since birth, like various medical devices, like the feeding tube. And then a lot of like therapies and just a lot of doctors. And so I would say chronically ill like, which is, you know, slightly different. Like you can be chronically ill and not necessarily be disabled.

Jillian Curwin: Hmm.

Julian Gavino: So it wasn't until, like, my late teens that I started to use mobility devices and then kind of, I guess what you could call like physically disabled in the same respects that I am now.

Jillian Curwin: Gotcha. And what was that, if you're comfortable talking like, what was that process like for you?

Julian Gavino: It was hard because despite having illnesses throughout my childhood, I still was like, really into sports and I would try to do different sports like soccer. I tried for a little bit, but the running was like too hard for me to keep up. But I was really good at swimming. I loved it. I did competitive swimming for a while, but I had a lot of injuries with it, unfortunately, due to the nature of my condition. And also like I started to not be able to keep up. Like I started to slow down and just realized like something was wrong. Like I just couldn't it wasn't the same anymore. I just started losing mobility. So it was difficult to make the decision to give that up because I really liked it and I still do swim, but obviously not in the same way. But I love going in the water, so…

Jillian Curwin: I love that, love the swimming. I just, I find it, you know, like… I never have had that moment of like going from being disabled or non-disabled to disabled. But, and I had this conversation recently with someone, about like kind of recognizing that being a little person meant that I was disabled. And it's, you know, it does, it has like, that life changing, kind of like you have to really shift your mindset about what you thought you could do and can't do. And it's, you know, it's like turning and this might sound a little cliché, but kind of like turning that pain of like recognizing it into power and saying, okay, this is what I can't do, but let me then embrace this term, embrace my disability and turn it into something else.

Julian Gavino: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's only been within the past like five, six years since I've had my platform that I've really come into that identity, and it's always, it's always like evolving, but definitely as a teenager, like that was really hard for me to wrap my head around. And then even harder, like when I was officially diagnosed with something, just kind of like the magnitude of all of that and like I was starting my transition as well, at the same time.

Jillian Curwin: Okay.

Julian Gavino: It was like I was supposed to be happy about transitioning and trans people often, not all, not all of us, but some of us have like a goal or an image in mind of like what, what you want to look like, you know, what you're trying to achieve. And realizing that now that goal wasn't obtainable was really devastating to me because, um, I wanted to work on my, my fitness, on my body. I wanted to gain muscle, and when you take testosterone, it's a lot easier to gain muscle. And then I found out that I have a condition that is like kind of the opposite of that. I can't really… I'm losing muscle. So it just sucked. It was a lot of a lot to go through.

And then when you are on hormones, you're going through a second puberty. So I was just very like angry for a while and in a lot of grief and pain over it.

Jillian Curwin: Did you have a support system during that time? Because like, I mean, I can't even imagine.

Julian Gavino: I, you know, I'm not close with my family and they were not happy about my transition and they were not helpful with my disability and my health. Um, I had a partner at the time whom like, we had been together since we were like very young. We eventually got married. So I had her and I had friends at this time though, like I was kind of both of us, me and the partner, we were essentially homeless. Like we were couch surfing and you know, I had been kicked out from my house because I started hormones and my parents weren't happy about that. So it was a rough time. I was trying to start my transition. I was becoming more and more disabled. I was in school and I was working three jobs because I had to pay for my school because my parents didn't want to pay for my school anymore, because of my decision to transition. So I didn't really have a choice. I was really burning myself out.

Jillian Curwin: And…I'm like, just trying to…. So like when, like, as you're going through this, like, and this might, I'm trying not not to put this the wrong way, or like trying to like sound like sorta like so like what helped you get through it or who…?

Julian Gavino: Oh yeah. Definitely. First and foremost my partner, like, she was that constant in my life. Like even though we're no longer together anymore, we do still talk occasionally. And like, we were just, we grew up together. We were part of each other's childhoods. And even throughout, like different friends, like, she was the constant thing in my life and kind of had seen me go through every sort of stage of disability and transition. And so that was huge like for me. And you know, she, she knows that too. So, you know, I think it's possible like, even if someone doesn't really have a lot, even just one person like that can make a difference, something that remains the same.

Jillian Curwin: I could not agree more with that. I think we all just need that one person and it doesn't matter who it is. Like they don't have to be family to still be that one person that you can just kind of depend on and who was always there. So I'm happy that you had that.

During this time, is this like when you started becoming interested in fashion or when did that start?

Julian Gavino: That was a couple of years later, but it originally like, well, I guess interested as in like career wise but interested in fashion just kind of as a general statement, I've always been interested in it. Since I was younger, like I was a girly girl. Like despite, I know a lot of trans people talk about like how they grew up, you know, maybe liking the opposite thing. But I kind of liked everything and I definitely really liked princesses and, like, I still do. So I love to dress up and put on fashion shows and stuff and my parents got me a digital camera. Like I know a lot of people around my age probably had. So I'd, you know, take a lot of pictures and I did a little bit of modeling when I was younger, when I still lived as female and, you know, my parents like really wanted me to get into it, but I wasn't comfortable with myself, like publicly like that.

So it really only started like after I built my platform, I had seen Aaron Philip and Jillian Mercado on my Instagram, like scrolling through and I saw them, both of them, and I was like, wow, maybe I could do something like that again. Like it, you know, like we always talk about representation is important. So like I saw that…Yeah.

Jillian Curwin: So the platform came first?

Julian Gavino: Yeah. Yeah.

Jillian Curwin: What then did cause… I only when we met you were, you know, you're who you are now. So, what were you then before like the modeling, like when the platform started? What was it?

Julian Gavino: Yeah. So at the time I started my platform, I was in school, I was in school for neuropsychology, which is that sounds crazy now considering what I'm doing, very unrelated. I mean, I don't know, you have to learn how to deal with people. So it has helped me a lot, but my original plan was to go... I was going to get a Ph.D. in neuropsychology. So that's the path I was going. And then as I was in school for a really long time, like we all are, my illness got worse and it just got to a point where like, I wasn't I couldn't be at school anymore. So I was doing it from home, from my bed, and I was really lonely. Like I, you know, my friends were like living their lives. Like even my partner at that time, she, she was still going to school, like in person and she had a job. And at this point, like, I had to quit all those jobs that I had. And I finally had somewhere relatively stable to live. And I decided to start an Instagram. I got one like really late, like everybody had already had social media stuff, but I was never into social media, which also sounds funny now I know. And then I, yeah, I was like the last one of my friends to download it.

And so, I was lonely and I thought like I just want to connect with people who are going through what I'm going through and I want to write about it. I want to talk about how I feel and maybe like, I don't know, it'll make someone else feel less alone or something. So I just started writing about my experiences. Like, I wrote, like, really long captions and I also had a WordPress blog, so I would write longer versions of those captions as well. And I would just write about like what I was going through with being sick in college. Or I would write about like something, like, one of the articles that really took off and got a lot of coverage in the early days that I was writing was like why able-bodied people shouldn't use the disabled bathroom stalls.

Jillian Curwin: Yes.

Julian Gavino: Yeah so, I would just write, like, about things I would experience like day to day or had previously experienced because like, you have to picture that I grew up in a really small conservative town in Florida, so I didn't know any other queer people and I didn't know any other disabled people. It wasn't until college I did meet one other disabled individual, um, but still like, didn't use a wheelchair like me. So it was, it was different. Like, I never met someone exactly like me, um, until starting my platform.

Jillian Curwin: That is so…You talked about a couple of things. I think the first thing I wanted to, that, I wanted to talk about that you said is that you're doing this just to kind of like not feel alone and to reach out because other people might be feeling like this. And I think that's what a lot of us have with, you know, in our friends who've created these platforms is the purpose of it's really to like just kind of let other people, whether they're like our peers or like younger selves or younger generation, like let them know that they're not alone. Because, again, like you said, disability, you know, we're often the only ones, or we have, have often been the only ones in the room. So it does feel very isolating. And so to kind of have that community and just be able to talk and tell your story, even though you're maybe not with the person reading it, you know, that somebody is and that it could be making a difference. And I think that's why we, at least it's why I do this. It's so that way, in case, like someone is listening.

Julian Gavino: Yeah. I mean…Yeah. Especially when you're homebound or bed-bound like, you know, you can…your phone. Phones can be very toxic, but they can also be helpful. And like at that time, that was my only window, I guess, into the rest of the world. So yeah, that's really how it started. It was like I always say to people, it was like my journal or my diary.

Jillian Curwin: Mm hmm.

Julian Gavino: But then it kind of turned into, like, other people's journal or diary, and then, like, our sort of community and thing. But yeah, I wasn't really expecting anything to come of it, and then it just kind of did.

Jillian Curwin: Right. And have you always been the disabled hippie? Like when you made your Instagram, was that who you've always been?

Julian Gavino: Yeah, the only other name that I use, like publicly, which was so long ago, around the time that I started having articles go viral. Atlas, my dog, my service dog - he's a golden retriever for people that don't know. He he had a viral video of him meeting Pluto and he was on the Today show. And like we were on Fox News and like, we went everywhere. And it was like this, he was like, he became famous at my school and everything. Like, everyone was like, “Oh, fuck Julian. Where's Atlas?” Like, it was funny, but I, I was still like training him at this moment, or he was, he was trained by an organization, but like, we were still working together on refining things. So for like a very short bit, I made it like a me and Atlas like, service dog and disabled person account like, I'm sure you've seen those and stuff.

Jillian Curwin: Yes.

Julian Gavino: So it was Hoolie, like that's a nickname that I have, H-O-O-L-I-E, and it was Hoolie and Atlas and that was the name for like, I don't know, it was really short, like…

Jillian Curwin: Oh, I mean I love Atlas and I love the Atlas content. Live for the Atlas content.

Julian Gavino: No, I loved it too, and it was it was fun for a while. But the service dog community is really scary.

Jillian Curwin: Oh gosh.

Julian Gavino: Like really toxic. So I was, I like, jumped in and then I quickly was like, that's not what I want to do.

Jillian Curwin: Gotcha. So we don't have to we don't have to talk about them.

Julian Gavino: It was an experience. Yeah.

Jillian Curwin: It was an experience. Okay. So then you build your platform and then modeling, like, how did it really start? Like you say, you saw Aaron and Jillian, who are two queens…

Julian Gavino: Yes.

Jillian Curwin: So like, how did you like did you just start taking photos? Like, how did you get discovered?

Julian Gavino: Yeah. And specifically like Aaron was, because Aaron being trans and disabled like me, like I was like, oh, my God, someone like, just like me, that's crazy. Like, so…Yeah. So with all these, like, captions that I would write, it was for, I still do it from time to time, but it's not my main thing anymore. But I would still write these like super long captions and kind of had like a title and a topic that I would discuss. And as like my platform was growing, I realized like, okay, like because you know, when you're growing a platform, you're like researching all this stuff like, how do I like make everything look good and like get more followers? And you're like watching tutorials so, obviously one of the main things is like take better photos and with my captions and stuff, like, I needed photos and I started taking pictures and I really was enjoying it. And like, I realized kind of, like, if I had a better picture, like, it would get better engagement and I was finally starting to like feel better in my disability with my mobility devices, with my transition, um, building this platform, taking the pictures for the captions. And then I saw Aaron, like I said, and Jillian and I just kind of, like, put it all together, like, oh my god, like, I could do modeling again. Like I could give this a try. Now that I'm kind of, like, the way that I want to be versus when I was younger, I was not comfortable.

Um, so I started like, searching around for agencies and Zebedee was the first one that came up, that's a modeling agency that specifically caters towards individuals with disabilities, and I chased them down for like a little bit. And it took some time, but eventually, they were only in the UK, like at the time that I found them. They have since moved to the U.S. like, they're in the UK, LA, and New York now. And so eventually they did reach back out to me and they invited me to New York City to do a casting and I asked one of my friends if they wanted to go. I was like, “Will you get on a plane with me and just like go and see what this is about?” And I took my friend and we, we went and that was that was it. Like I, I got signed with them and it was a great day, a great trip.

Jillian Curwin: Insane, and it's led to… you've been doing some amazing things, focusing on like, I guess, on like, what recent things, there are two things that I want to talk about. One is very recent that I didn't know we were going to be talking about until it happened, which is Maybelline.

Julian Gavino: Oh, yeah.

Jillian Curwin: So I saw this… I knew… So our friend Bri, who's been on the podcast, needs to come back if she's listening…

Julian Gavino: We'll make her listen to this.

Jillian Curwin: We'll make her listen. But like, I have a topic I want to talk about with her, so, like, she needs to come back on.

So I saw she like, had posted like, I guess on her stories her in like this amazing makeup. And this was like, I guess, beginning of July and I, of course, was like, oh, my gosh, you look amazing. Like, what is this for? And she's like, it's for a project. Can't, like, can't go into details. It's just it's really exciting and it's with disability pride. I'm like, okay, gonna stay tuned for this. So then, Monday it came out? The 20? The first? Did it drop?

Julian Gavino: It came out on the 31st.

Jillian Curwin: Okay, so July 31st, I just got on my Instagram, you know, like we all do. And I see Julian and I see Bri and I see all these amazing disabled models, like, in this Maybelline, like spot on Instagram. And I'm like, drop my phone because I was, like, this is disability representation. This is what we need to see. Like other brands aren't doing it. Cause I really, up until then hadn't really seen other brands and other companies do anything for Disability Pride Month.

Julian Gavino: They really haven't. I mean, it's been a few years now that we've been like, we as in the whole disability community, have been hounding companies to like recognize it as an actual month, because obviously like, I can say this as a queer person but like, LGBT pride gets like a lot of traction, a lot of like, you know, donations and I don't know, sales within companies. And like it's a whole big, big thing now. But Disability Pride is not so like…I've been trying, personally, to get companies on that, you know let's talk about it, but…

Jillian Curwin: Right. Did you, or Bri, or anyone else like other, the models like have any… like, how did this happen? Was this like through your agency? Was this through the models? Cause I know it was all through the one agency that you're all represented by.

Julian Gavino: Yeah. So, like, I can't speak for everybody, but like me and Bri are signed to other agencies like as well but um, We Speak is the one that, like, every model for this campaign had in common. We Speak Models, and that's in New York City, and Briauna Mariah is the owner, the founder of it, and she's really the one that, like, conjured this up. Like, I don't really know how she did it. I think she was in talks with them like before about something unrelated. And we were already planning this Disability Pride shoot because it was something that we all like really wanted to do and had an idea for like as all the disabled models of, of We Speak. And I think it just kind of clicked in her head like, well, I'm talking to them anyways. Like, why don't we see if they want to be a part of this Disability Pride Month thing that we're doing, so we could like really like get this message out on a, on a huge scale and they, I don't know, they loved the idea. It was crazy. Like they just, I don't know. I think we all weren't really, like, expecting it to happen, but they, they loved it.

And so it happened. It happened like so fast, like, cause the original shoot got canceled, like someone got COVID, and that was like a mess. And then it was, there were so many times, like, we did not think it was going to happen, period. Even just, like, a regular shoot. And then at the final hour, like, Maybelline stepped in and like they pulled it all together. it was wild.

Jillian Curwin: It was wild. And I mean, it turned out absolutely amazing.

Julian Gavino: It was. I guess it still doesn't, like, feel real. Yeah. And we haven't even gotten like there's more photos like yet to come so you'll have to look out for that. I haven't even seen them yet like…

Jillian Curwin: I will be and I think like, again like, with this younger self and like talk about representation and seeing like, for other disabled kids to see this, you know, especially like, when you're at that, you know, because I think Maybelline definitely target, you know, like it's available everywhere. So like, for younger kids to see this and to say there are, like, disabled models like in a major campaign by a major cosmetics company like, I can do this too. And that disability is beautiful.

Julian Gavino: Yeah. I mean, as a person who does things in the public eye, like that's kind of what you always hope. Like, how I described when I saw Aaron like, you always hope that you're, you're inspiring someone else to do the same thing. Like, I know in Bri's interview she said like, that we speak for our younger selves, you know? And it's true, like you're, you're healing your own inner child. And you're also hoping that, you know, that's reaching other people, younger people. Um, yeah.

Jillian Curwin: It is. Um, and again, I think that's important and it looked like, at least from watching the video like, the behind the scenes that like, it looks like it was just a really fun positive experience for everyone involved.

Julian Gavino: It was, yeah. I mean, we got to get really cool makeup. We got a lot of makeup after the shoot, which was cool. And yeah they just had all these like really amazing makeup artists there and they were great about letting us pick different options for wardrobe. Like they gave us like three options and the video that you saw is short compared to like we had a pretty long interview like all individually and we got to just tell our story and it was organic and we all got to be together that day to which like of all the times. Like both Bri and I talk about being the only disabled person on set. So that was actually the first like full day that I got to spend with Bri, who like is my only personal friend. I know from that shoot the rest of the models like I do know but haven't really hung out with. But I got to know more of them and hang out. So that's rare. Like you just we don't get opportunities like that often.

Jillian Curwin: Can you contrast it with like experience where you are the only disabled person on set. Like what, like, what's the difference? What are the differences there?

Julian Gavino: Um, I mean, even if it's like a good experience, like nobody is like overtly ableist, it's still just weird. Like, it can be uncomfortable. Like you can somehow be the center of attention, but like in a strange way, like in a weird way, where people treat you cautiously or kind of, I don't know, it's just weird. Like, they have sometimes it can be uncomfortable the way they have to adapt things but don't have to do it for the other models. And it's just, I don't know, it's strange. It's hard to really pinpoint, but I just wish I had someone else there most of the time. That kind of got it, you know?

Jillian Curwin: Of course, I think we wish that a lot in, like, a lot of the settings, you know, in professional and personal that we wish that there was just someone there, because even our loved ones, there's a part of our life experience that they're just never going to be able to fully understand. So I totally get that.

Julian Gavino: It's true. Yeah, absolutely.

Jillian Curwin: Um, I do want to talk about just because when I approached you this had just come out and we saved the story for this moment. If you're still comfortable talking about it, you can say no and we can move on. Before the Maybeliene, so this was it was for pride, it was in June, right?

Julian Gavino: Yeah.

Jillian Curwin: Okay. So in June, for Pride, you took part of a campaign with Crayola which, again, I saw. And it was just like, yes, sharing, reposting. But I know when you were like, when I first talked to you about it, you said some things, so I want to hear. Like what that campaign and and posts like once it came live, was like for you.

Julian Gavino: Correction. It was in July.

Jillian Curwin: It was in July. Okay.

Julian Gavino: It was in July for Disability Pride Month.

Jillian Curwin: Oh, okay.

Julian Gavino: Yeah. That's what they were doing it for. Yeah. So they just, they had reached out to me via email and Crayola, that is, and they wanted to feature me for Disability Pride Month and it wasn't like a very official thing, like it wasn't like a paid job or like it wasn't... They just wanted to… me to answer a couple interview questions and then write like a little blurb about me and like post me on their page I guess, which is fine. You know, as I was, I didn't really think much of it. Like, I was like, okay, sure. And I answered like a couple questions and they didn't really give me a lot of info about it, to be honest. I thought that they had said they were highlighting, like, individuals for Disability Pride Month, so I was like picturing it as like they were going to do multiple people or like maybe I was going to be a part of like a slide show thing. So I can't really describe it other than I just was like, okay, like...

Jillian Curwin: Okay.

Julian Gavino: Yeah. And then, then it came out like it was just a post. Like I said, they just wrote a little info about me. Like, Julian is a trans and disabled model and activist and he expresses himself through fashion and colors like this way, because, like, a lot of the questions were about, like, color, obviously. So that was it. It was like super short and people went absolutely wild. They hated it. Like they freaked out.

The people were enraged about it. They were like commenting, it went out on Facebook and Instagram, and so they were commenting like really, really hateful, ableist and transphobic things. They were sending me emails and threats and, like, my family members, and like DMs and comments and it was like endless. The amount of it was just like an influx of hate and I emailed Crayola and I was like, I think you need to turn the comments off your posts. And they were like, they responded by saying that they thought it was helpful for people to see it. Like, because I was arguing with some of the comments and there were also there was a lot of people who did love it too, along with hate it like I was very polarizing.

So there were people like defending and having like these political arguments on the Crayola thing. And Crayola had said that they thought that that was like helpful and I was just kind of like, you know, I didn't ask to be a political like, trampoline right now, basically, like, I didn't ask for this. Like, I thought we were just making like a post. Like I wasn't mentally, physically prepared to have, like, a political argument with people. You have any questions so far?

Jillian Curwin: Yes I do. I'm trying to think of, like, the first…I mean like…

Julian Gavino: It doesn't end there so, like, I don't know if you want, if you have questions so far, maybe…

Jillian Curwin: Okay, so why I can see like, because again, like I, and I say this too or like if I'm talking about a topic and I know that if there's people in the community, or I just know that there are generally people who have different opinions, like I say, that I want them to come on and to share it. Like this is a space for differing opinions to be heard.

But I feel like there does become a point, especially if you're receiving messages, it's one thing if Crayola is receiving the messages, but they turn to you and you are not other than a model in that in that space that like then it does become a problem and then Crayola like should have stepped in to protect you.

Julian Gavino: Yeah. It wasn't just like, quirky, hateful comments. Like, it was like people in my DMs or emails that are, like, really scary alt-right people that, like, you don't want to know who you are. Like I didn't, I don't want, you know, I don't on my page and probably on your page too like a lot of the times, you're just kind of staying within your own community. Like, and even a lot of the times when I am introduced to maybe communities that don't agree with me, a lot of times it's civil. Like, it will be people that we do have genuinely good discussions, kind of like how you're describing.

But it's not often that like, people like, that get a hold of my content and I try to really I don't really want that to be the case because like I don't work in politics, right? Contrary to like whatever they believe. Like that's not my goal. So yeah.

Jillian Curwin: Right. Like you, again, you're there, you're working as a model. Like that's your purpose. Like, that's like, and again, I think that they maybe, I think should have stepped in and said, hey, either we're turning off the comments or like just protected you more.

Julian Gavino: Yeah. They did. I had to ask twice.

Jillian Curwin: Okay.

Julian Gavino: Like they kind of, it took them 24 hours to get back to me. So like in 24 hours like, there was still a lot of damage that was done. Like both me and Sky, my partner, had to be on, she's logged in on my facebook and on my Instagram, too, on her phone. And we both like kind of double time, like blocking people and like deleting the stuff because kind of the main thing, I didn't mention this yet, but the main thing that people were mad about was one of the pictures that Crayola decided to use for the post was, if you go on, if you're listening and you go on my Instagram right now, I don't know what number of posts it is, but I did a photoshoot for the New York City Pride…

Jillian Curwin: Mm hmm.

Julian Gavino: And it's a green... Do you do video on this podcast?

Jillian Curwin: No, but I will. I see the… You can just. So, yeah, you're wearing.

Julian Gavino: I'll show it to you. It's green...

Jillian Curwin: Yes.

Julian Gavino: You know that one.

Jillian Curwin: I love it.

Julian Gavino: Yeah. If you go on my page, people who are listening, it's, it has a yellow background and I'm wearing something green and there's like a, it's it's like a bra over the, the thing that I'm wearing. I'm fully clothed, but it's a…it was made of like crystals like…

Jillian Curwin: Yeah.

Julian Gavino: Little gems, the bra. It's not a bra that's meant to be worn under the clothes. It is a bra, it's made by a local designer to New York City, it's a bra that's meant to be worn over clothes. I don't have kids, so like, I cannot speak on what people with kids think. But I just have to say that I didn't pick the photos. Crayola is the one who picked the photos. Like I didn't even, they didn't tell me. Like I said that I didn't, I did not know what they were going to… They just took them off my page and they posted three images. And one of those images was that. And people, for some reason I guess, old people don't really know how like Instagram works, but they thought that I took that picture for Crayola and I was like, that was not for Crayola. This was for something else. So these pictures were all from different modeling jobs and you know, people were just saying it was inappropriate for children and they were that's kind of the main thing that they were really mad about. And I was just kind of like I literally had nothing to do with it.

And this photo was not for children. Like it was not originally meant for children. And I don't have a page like, people were just mad at me and I was saying, they were calling me a groomer and like a pedophile and I yeah, it was like really, really bad stuff. Like very disgusting stuff. And I was just responding by being like, I did not pick the photos, this photo was not for Crayola, it's not for children. My page is not for children. And I've never claimed to be a page for children, like that. You know, it's just not I'm not a kids page. I don't know. I don't know what people want from me and…I don't know. Adults also use Crayola, so I don't know. You know?

Jillian Curwin: Yeah. They make coloring books for that purpose, for adults [that] color. People suck. That's like, the first thought that came to mind. People really suck. And again to, like, take it out on you and like again, you didn't pick the photo. They did. And you do look amazing in the photo. I will say, by the way, like, you do look amazing in the photo. But just like, and you're not saying, like you're literally, you're just smile, like you're not the person in that, like, you're the model in that situation. Like you, like they should… I can't even articulate what I really want to say right now. That's how frustrated and angry I am.

Julian Gavino: Yeah, well, like, like I said, I'm just going to be completely transparent saying, like, I don't even want kids, like, I don't I'm not a kid person. I don't know anything about kids. Seriously, I really don't. I've never like I don't know, okay. I don't know.

Every every parent is going to have a different opinion of their kid. But I do know that parents are supposed to be the ones that are in control of what their kids are consuming. And that's, like, their responsibility. I do know that much at least. But, you know, it's just, it was not in my control. Whatever Crayola decided to post, and maybe there was a miscommunication on, like, I was assuming they were posting me amongst other people like through a slide show. Like I said, I didn't think I was going to be the only disabled person they were, like, showcasing. Like, I didn't know the whole thing was going to be on me. So, you know, everyone's entitled to their own opinion about what's appropriate for children. Trans people and disabled people are not inappropriate for children. I will say that.

Jillian Curwin: No.

Julian Gavino: Like, whatever you feel about how I look, I don't really give a shit, but like, you know, it just, it was wild. And either way, like, nobody deserves threatening stuff like that, and hate, and people really need to learn how social media works. Like people were like, take it off of Crayola's page. And I was like, why do you think I have the log in to Crayola? I'm not Crayola like, it just, it sucks when you're the individual person and a brand does something and then people hate you. I'm like, okay, like these are my photos. I'm living my life. I can't do anything about Crayola posting them, like truly.

Jillian Curwin: Right. If you had their log in, you would have turned off the comments.

Julian Gavino: Yeah, I would have deleted the post like, I wanted it, you know. And so it basically came, like, to wrap it all up, it came to a very sad and, like, I had to ask them to take it down. Turning the comments off was not enough. People wanted it down. They were coming for my head and they wanted it down like they were not going to stop until it got taken down. Because people, like I said, everybody's entitled to their own opinions, but people get, very understandably, of course, upset when they believe something has to do with children and there was no convincing them that, like, I wasn't some sort of groomer coming to like make their kids trans. So they were just really mad about it. And so I was like, I've literally never asked a brand to do this, but you have to take it down. And they did agree to take it down and they did. And then, and then they email me back a day later and were like, “Can we post an apology?” Like, not for the trolls, but like basically saying Crayola does not agree with like the alt-right, basically, and like this hateful stuff and like they wanted to explain like they had to take it down because people were like literally threatening to kill me and how that's like, bullshit. And I was like, that's a beautiful sentiment, but I just don't want any more attention drawn to me. Like, I don't want any more people that I don't know drawn to my page.

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Julian Gavino: I can't have that. It's better to just, like, not say anything.

Jillian Curwin: What lessons can brands take from…? I'm trying to, like, pivot a little bit. So then like what lessons could a brand take from this? Like what lesson, like, what should brands know before working with a disabled model? A member of the LGBT community? What should they know and be aware of and how should they protect their models?

Julian Gavino: For one, you have to really know your audience. I kind of feel stupid because me and Sky, my partner, we talked about it after the fact and I was like, I should have known. Like, I should have known that their page is more catered to the general public and that I should not like go near something that has to do with kids like that. Because, like I said, people get that way, especially the alt right. They get very triggered, let's say, by thinking that you're trying to make their kids trans or something. So I was like, dammit, I should have known, like, you know. So I would say that like while maybe it's good that I challenged their audience in a way like people saw it or something, if I could go back in time, I would have never, like, done it because it's not worth it. Like, you know? I don't know.

So I just, I feel like for one, like, you have to know your audience. Like, if I put, if you and me made a post together on either of our pages or something, like we'd get a good reception because that's our audience. So I feel, like, you have to be really careful. Like, if you're putting someone up there on stage, like who's very vulnerable, like me being trans and disabled, you have to know, like, is your audience going to receive this well or are they going to like hunt this person down and, like, I feel like, as their marketing department and their social media people, they should have had a good grasp like on their audience, on the control of the audience and also on like what the reception would be because they've got like crazy strategy things and analytics and things that like technology, like we don't even know how to use.

Jillian Curwin: Right. Brands, I hope you were listening to that.

Julian Gavino: Yeah. Know your audience. Protect your, whoever you're working with. Pay them. And also listen to them. Like if something needs to be taken down and, you know, put the person's safety first. I mean, and I don't know, I guess be careful about whatever pictures you're putting, because, you know, some pictures, some…I'm not saying there's something wrong with the bra, but like some people with certain pictures, it may be more risky than others and they're going to be triggered or whatever.

Jillian Curwin: So people just...? Huh, people. But I think it's like an important point, especially because, you know, like protecting us, like the models, especially like disabled models, like, because I know talking with you and Bri and lik,e just living in a disabled body, like, we're very protective of it. And it's hard because it's also, like we are, like, we recognize our vulnerabilities and we're the most aware of our vulnerabilities. And so when even with, like, friends and family, let alone people we're working with, we want to feel protected and safe because sometimes it's harder to defend ourselves.

Julian Gavino: It's true. And also, you want consent. Like I was saying, I didn't have to be a political trampoline at that moment. There are times where I do talk about politics and I do talk about disability rights and like, you know, we talk about the ADA, obviously, a lot within the disability community. We talk about policy and stuff like that. I talk about it with trans people as well, but I do that on my own time and in my own, on my own terms. And when I'm going to have to have or write a political conversation, I want to be well researched in whatever I'm talking about, and I want to be respectful of everybody and, but it sucks when you can't you don't seem to have consent over that. Like, especially trans people are like the center of media conversations all the time. Like, should trans people be in sports? Should this? Should that? Like, it's constant. And if somebody that doesn't like, you knows, you're trans, they're going to immediately be like, “Why do you want to make my kids trans?” Or, “Why do you think trans people belong in sports?” And it's wild. Like, they'll just turn on all these conversations and I'm like, whoa, I did not ask to have that conversation. I don't like you don't even know my thoughts about that stuff anyways. Like, they just automatically assume what your thoughts are like. I'm not saying I'm one of them. I'm not conservative, but there are conservative trans people like, there are so many types of trans people. Don't just automatically assume you know their opinion because someone's trans or they're disabled or this or that. It's very assaulting to just start start in on someone like saying, you know, the it's your fault because of this. Like it's just, it's too much. And I did not ask for it. Like, I just wanna, I just want to live, to be alive.

Jillian Curwin: Right. And I think that's what every disabled person wants, every trans person wants. Like, we just want to live our lives and be able to pursue our passions. And we're not trying to even, I would say those, I'm trying to phrase this correctly, those with a platform like us who are advocates like, we're not trying to push any agenda on someone else. We're just trying to have people listen and to see us, and, again, like to feel represented. And which is why I think it's so important, especially with what you and Bri, and what I sometimes try to do in fashion, because I think that's one industry that affects everyone. We all get dressed in the morning and that helps us shape our identities and how we want to present ourselves to the world, which is why, you know, and like, you know, seeing on the positive side, like with the Maybelline campaign, like I hope that's not the end and that other brands see this or even like Maybelline sees it and says, okay, we need to include more disability because disability, like the rest of the different types of, whether it's like race, sexuality is incredibly diverse.

Julian Gavino: Yeah, exactly. I'm like, dude, I'm not after your kids with my sparkly bra. I just want basic fucking rights. Like, I just want like, yeah, I just want enough money to survive and, like, somewhere to live. You know, the ability to leave my house, health care. Like, I just want, like…We want want what they want. Yeah. Like, I just want rights. We can focus on other stuff later that are more complicated. There's a lot to go over, but like, yeah, it just gets out of hand really quick. And I just wanna vibe. Just wanna be alive.

Jillian Curwin: Right. That's all we want. That's really, that's literally, like we want the same thing that like that non-disabled people want, which is to live our lives. It's harder for us. But like, that's what we're all trying to work for, is to make it really easier for us to do it, to be able to do it.

Julian Gavino: One, that's funny because like, if you do get the chance to have conversations with people who disagree with you, like my family is a conservative as an example. So I have these conversations, often there will be times where we get to call like the, I don't know, the middle of a conversation. We realize we want the same thing and it's, it's like so funny when that happens because a lot of times that's the case. Like a lot of humans, like our needs are very similar and it's just like, but it's, it's like a lot of times the method of how we get there or the route or whatever. But if we would just realize like, it's all pretty similar, like, you know. We don't need to freak out about this, but I don't know, we just have a hard time, you know, all communicating with each other. So it's sad. It sucks.

Jillian Curwin: It does. But I think that, with what we're doing on our platforms and what and seeing, the disability representation again, I think is so important, at least so the younger generation who maybe haven't formed these opinions yet are seeing this and are feeling seen and are listening.

Julian Gavino: Yeah, I hope so. I mean, I want, you know, I want people to do stuff like we're doing like young disabled or young, trans people. And I want people to feel seen and feel heard. And I hope that people keep fighting and, you know, doing doing what they need to do. And a lot of the times, like, when I am facing dealing with people like that, like through the Crayola thing, like I just try to be… If I can have the opportunity, I try to be kind to them or I try to be kind to someone else that day and just, you know, carry on with what I'm doing because I don't have hate in my heart like that, you know? And I think if you just keep living and you show other people like that, hopefully it inspires more people to not be so hateful.

Jillian Curwin: I cannot agree more hate takes up too much space. It really does. Who do you look up to?

Julian Gavino: You. You and Bri. Yeah.

Jillian Curwin: Awww. I did not tell him to say that.

Julian Gavino: She didn't.

No, really. Like you, Bri, like my friends, my, you know, my community. Like the people that I see and, like, and don't see. I mean, but especially people that, you know, like, you are getting to see. You do this podcast being on this podcast. Seeing what direction like you're going in life, like just people that I can keep up to date with and follow their life. It's great. It's, it's cool to see like I haven't known you as long as Bri, but, but eventually but…

Jillian Curwin: Yes.

Julian Gavino: Yeah, you know. Like, getting to see Bri like, evolve through her modeling. Like, she was at the same casting that I mentioned earlier where I went to New York, that's where we met, like…

Jillian Curwin: Oh, I didn't know that.

Julian Gavino: Yeah. Like, so it's wild, like, to see how that evolved. So I love that. I love, I love seeing people that I love thrive and like that inspires me to keep, you know, doing, doing more stuff. Like, I don't know it was like a bad way of saying it, but that's what I like. That's what I like to see.

Jillian Curwin: Yeah, I love that. I love that. And again, I did not tell him to say that. Just putting that out there. Are there any questions I have not asked that you would like to answer?

Julian Gavino: I don't think so. Like nothing that I can think of. I think you're really good at asking questions. I mean, you do this a lot. So they're very stimulating questions.

Jillian Curwin: Thank you. Definitely have to have you back. You and… I also want to have like an episode with you and Bri. So that's happening. Again, Bri I hope you're listening. I'm putting that out there for you. Where can people follow you?

Julian Gavino: Not Crayola. I'm just kidding, guys, please don't hate Crayola. They did resolve the situation. May not have been handled amazingly, but like we, we did have a debriefing session and everything.

Jillian Curwin: We're not hating on them.

Julian Gavino: No. They did, they did rectify everything. Just. Yeah. A fu-, a future brand thing for other brands. But, in any event, @thedisabledhippie is my Instagram and that's honestly where I do everything I don't really live on many other platforms. I'm trying to do more stuff outside of social media. So that's really it. But I'll update all the time on my…not all the time, but I'll update what I'm doing on social media as things come out. So my Instagram.

Jillian Curwin: I will have have links to follow in the show notes. Thank you so much, Julian.

I do kind of an icebreaker, but at the end because I feel like it's more fun that way. So I have five categories and I just want to hear your favorite in each one. Favorite book?

Julian Gavino: Favorite book. It's actually right in front of me. It's called The Loss Art of Dying.

Jillian Curwin: Oh, what's that about?

Julian Gavino: Dying. It's true. It's about how to die a good death. And it's about how we view death pretty specifically in America with like medicalized death and sort of like, you're right, surrounding death and how to I mean, it's called the lost art of dying. So like historically, like, death used to be a lot more peaceful or there would be an art, let's say, about it. So it's about kind of bringing that back and coming to peace with that. And so I really like it. it is a great book.

Jillian Curwin: Interesting. I'm going to add that to my list of books to read that just never ends.

Julian Gavino: Same.

Jillian Curwin: Favorite TV show?

Julian Gavino: Oh, The Sopranos.

Jillian Curwin: Yes. Yes. Favorite drink?

Julian Gavino: Coffee.

Jillian Curwin: Okay. How do you drink it?

Julian Gavino: Oh, usually with, like, I do espresso and then…

Jillian Curwin: Okay.

Julian Gavino: Like a double shot, usually with oat milk and I put salt in my coffee. I'm sorry. A lot of people are not…

Jillian Curwin: Wait, what does it..? Wait. Wait. What does that do to the coffee? I need to know.

Julian Gavino: I add like a little bit of vanilla and then salt, so it's like…Okay. So like, think of it as like, you know, like how people do like salted caramel, like brownies or something?

Jillian Curwin: Yes.

Julian Gavino: So, I don't really like caramel, so I do vanilla. But it's like, it would be like if you think about a salted caramel, but with vanilla. it's a salted…

Jillian Curwin: Okay.

Julian Gavino: I don't know. It just like, salt enhances the flavor of things. And also I have low blood pressure all the time. So I put salt in everything.

Jillian Curwin: You're gonna have to introduce me to that because maybe then I'll, if I like that I'll start drinking coffee because I don't. Favorite piece of advice you've ever given.

Julian Gavino: Oh given. Um, it's pretty basic but like, this is not revolutionary but I guess it's what's gotten me through. It's what's brought me to like the level of resilience that I have now. And so I just usually tell people if they're asking for advice, like, you got to go with what you want to do, like you got to tune everybody out and go with your gut and you like only you know what's best for you.

And I had to keep telling myself that through my transition, like when everyone was telling me, don't transition, I just really dug deep and listened to like what's what's going on in my body, in my mind that like, I can tease apart from like the voices around me and just going, going with that, following that till the end of its path and then when a new path arises, follow that to the end of its path. And that's like that's why I have so many jobs, because that's what I've been doing for years now.

Jillian Curwin: I love that. Last one. Favorite piece of advice you've ever received?

Julian Gavino: So it's actually on my arm. It's a, it's my tattoo, it's in Italian and it says, “All… all roads lead to Rome”. And it is literal, like literally in Rome, but also the infrastructure. But also it's meant as a figurative statement. My family's Italian, I grew up speaking the language and learning different customs like that. And my grandmother used to tell me that, that quote in Italian and she would mean it as saying like it's kind of something they used to say. Everything that's like meant to be will be like one of those things like you'll go where you're meant to go. Just keep keep traveling. Like you'll get there to your destiny.

Jillian Curwin: Love that. That is the perfect note to end this on. Julian, I cannot thank you enough for coming on. You are welcome back anytime. I better be seeing you soon.

Julian Gavino: Very. I'll be here tomorrow.

Jillian Curwin: Yes. You're going to be in New York tomorrow. I'll let you know if it happens people, because this will not be coming out tomorrow.

The final final thing I have to ask is for you to please remind my listeners in your most badass voice possible that height is just a number, not a limit.

Julian Gavino: Great. You said height?

Jillian Curwin: Mm hmm.

Julian Gavino: Okay. I'm so monotone. I'll say it in my, my own voice, I guess.

Jillian Curwin: It's your voice.

Julian Gavino: Height is just a number, not a limit.

Jillian Curwin: Always Looking Up is hosted by Jillian Curwin and edited and produced by Ben Curwin. Please make sure to rate review and subscribe and follow on Spotify so that you never miss an episode. Follow me on Instagram @jill_ilana and the podcast @alwayslookingup.podcast for updates and check out my blog, JillianIlana.com for more content about what it is like to be a little person in an average sized world.

Thanks for listening. See you next week.

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