Dave Duminuco On Redefining The Look Of Fitness

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Jillian Curwin: Hi everyone. Welcome to Always Looking Up, the podcast for no one is overlooked and height is only a number, never a limit, hosted by me, Jillian Curwin. Each week I'll be having a conversation about what it is like to live in a world that is not necessarily designed for you.

In this week's episode, I welcome back Dave Duminuco. Dave is a personal trainer at Equinox. We discuss the actual and perceived inaccessibility of gyms and fitness spaces, the importance of seeing different body types in fitness marketing, and question what a personal trainer should look like. Let's get into it.

Hi, Dave.

Dave Duminuco: Hi, Jillian. How are you?

Jillian Curwin: Good. How are you?

Dave Duminuco: I’m doing very well, thank you. Happy to be back.

Jillian Curwin: Yeah, I was going to say welcome back. It's been a minute since you've been on the podcast. It has not been a minute since I've seen you. I saw you this morning as we're recording this.

Dave Duminuco: Yeah. I get the pleasure of hanging out with you every morning. I'm pretty sure, at least Monday through Friday.

Jillian Curwin: I know. [laughter] Monday through Friday. And I have been… In getting him on this, for this episode, I have been sending him selfies of myself with him in the background. So it finally worked.

Dave Duminuco: Was I in the background? I didn't notice.

Jillian Curwin: Yes! [laughter]

Dave Duminuco: Oh, that's so funny. I definitely got the selfies. I need to go back and look in the background. That's really funny.

Jillian Curwin: You're, you're in every single one that I've sent you.

Dave Duminuco: That's really funny. Yeah, my apologies.

Jillian Curwin: You're here now. That's all that matters.

Dave Duminuco: Cool. Cool.

Jillian Curwin: So you were on…you were one of my like, my first guests, but way back when I kind of started, or I was like, really getting this going. So, for my listeners who maybe didn't listen to that episode, which I highly recommend you do, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself?

Dave Duminuco: Sure. So hello, everyone. My name is Dave Duminuco. I'm a coach and personal trainer. I work out of Equinox Park Avenue in New York City, as well as run my own business virtually and around the city. I've been a personal trainer for about four years now and it is something I feel very passionately about, something that brings me a lot of purpose and fulfillment, and I love it. Yeah.

Jillian Curwin: Yes. So last time you were on, I was a client of yours, I believe…

Dave Duminuco: That’s right.

Jillian Curwin: When we talked about, like, how you train me, and the approach you had to take with it. I’m no longer a client but like, again, I see you every day in the gym and everything, but I wanted to have you on this time because I think there's like I've…With like my approach of fitness, and like I'm very passionate about it, as I've talked about, and try to like, figure out like, how other ways to get involved and like, wanting to see more disabled people in the gym. And I've been like, playing with the idea of like, could a little person, could a disabled person actually be a personal trainer? And what would that look like? Because obviously, you know, working with you and seeing you also train other clients, like you're spotting them and there's no way I could spot someone my height even, with a barbell on their back. Like, I just, I don't think that's physically possible. So I kind of like, wanted to talk about that as well as, you know, hear more about your story that we didn't talk about last time. And like, kind of see, like what's changed and everything and yeah.

Dave Duminuco: Cool. Yeah. Now that's, that's great. That sounds awesome. Yeah. You raise some really good questions and some points there. So I guess let me ask you, how did you arrive at wanting to be a personal trainer? That's great.

Jillian Curwin: I think I subconsciously have been considering this for a while. So definitely since I really, at least since I really started like, coming to the gym again when everything opened up, and working with you, and kind of with the content that I've been creating and showing that, you know, fitness can be accessible for people with disabilities. Because again, we don't see disabled people in the gym. I don't see it in our gym. That's visibly. There could be invisible... I don't know. But at least like, visibly disabled representation, I don't see it. And I think I've just kind of been this place like, I want to give back as well. Because I think working out has helped me tremendously physically, mentally and emotionally, and that kind of seems like the best way to do it, and also a way to show that like to bring disabled people in. That was a very long way to get there.

Dave Duminuco: Oh, no, that's, that's not. That makes complete sense, what you just said. Yeah, I think it's hard for me to identify what you said. Are there other disabled people in our gym? How do we, how do you define disabled? And how do we, as someone like myself who's able bodied, I guess.

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Dave Duminuco: How would do I intelligently, respectfully, or mindfully identify a disabled person? And, what is the right move? Call attention to it or, or not call attention to it. You tell me.

Jillian Curwin: I mean like, you look at me, you can tell I'm visibly like, you see, you see the dwarfism. And like, I don't see, there's, I don't see people, other little people, in the gym. I don't see other, you know, people with necessarily limb differences. I don't see people in wheelchairs. I just don't see them. And I, and it's not just even at our gym, it's in a lot of fitness spaces that I've been to. I don't see it. There could always be people with invisible disabilities, and those you may not see but they are there, and that is up to them whether or not they choose to disclose it.

Dave Duminuco: Sure.

Jillian Curwin: But I think that it kind of… I talked about this with some other people and in episode I recently did with Maria Rabaino, who is a wheelchair user, and she's a member of the, a wheelchair dance team called the Rollettes, saying that gyms are often seen as a place that is inaccessible to disabled people. And part of it is this belief that we can't move our bodies in a way that is conducive in a gym environment, or that we just can't, we don't belong, our bodies don't belong in those spaces. And I guess also another reason why I want to be a trainer, to kind of prove that belief wrong.

Dave Duminuco: Yeah, I love it. I, I fully support it. I think that makes complete sense. Yeah, that makes complete sense. Yeah. And to your point, I guess even in, I think in advertisements for Blink, I've seen someone in a wheelchair, in some of the ads.

Jillian Curwin: Okay.

Dave Duminuco: I could be wishfully thinking that, but I think I've seen that. I think I've seen that. But it is interesting, and you raise a good point like, we don't see a lot of disabled, or any disabled people, in the marketing campaigns or ads for the gym and is a… I mean, it could be for a number of reasons, but it seems like possibly it's, to your point, subconsciously, maybe for them or not, of what is the gym supposed to elicit? What types of feelings?

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Dave Duminuco: Like, being fit and able, I guess, or maybe not able, but fit and strong and, and you know, great potential. And perhaps there's yeah, a, a, how do you, how do I want to say it? It's an oversight of culture…

Jillian Curwin: Mmmhmm.

Dave Duminuco: That, that doesn't acknowledge that you can be fit, and all of those things, with a disability.

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Dave Duminuco: Because I see it like, I'm thinking to myself, as I'm thinking about this now, you know, on Instagram, lots of videos of disabled people in wheelchairs, or paraplegics, or bi, bi-..., people that are missing their lower half, right?

Jillian Curwin: Yeah.

Dave Duminuco: And, or they have one arm and they're doing crazy Olympic lifting moves, or just they…the wild displays of strength.

Jillian Curwin: Mmmhmm.

Dave Duminuco: So, you see it maybe on more, I see it on more individual platforms, but you raise a good point. And yeah, I think it's really important, and great what you're doing. I mean, showing up for other people, showing up for yourself is obviously, I think number one for you, me, and everybody else. It starts with us. But, but yeah, I fully support it.

And I mean, I see you there every day, and all of my clients, and most of my friends in the gym, always acknowledge you and say, “Wow, she's here every day.”

Jillian Curwin: Mmmhmm.

Dave Duminuco: And not necessarily, not pointing out your dwarfism at all, but just the fact that you are a presence in the gym, every day, doing your thing. And I usually follow up with, “Yeah, she's, she, she's all on her own. Like, she doesn't ask for any help. Like notice like, all the weights are racked by Jillian. She does everything by herself.” It's, it's very inspiring for me and I think a lot of other people that you might not talk to, or talk to you, for whatever reason. But, but it's great. It's great having you there. So many of my clients say like, She's so she's so happy, too,” and it's so great.

Jillian Curwin: Yeah. I think that's like, the next step because I know like, I've seen it, like I go pretty much at the same time every day. So like, it's the same people there. And like, I've gotten to the point now where like, someone will come over when I'm squatting and like, help me set up the rack because usually the weights are too high even for me to reach there. But like, that culture of like, where people just come out to each other and like, talk to each other because they are regulars and they see each other there. I feel like, honestly, that's now just starting to happen with me, where I'm like, someone will come up like, the regulars will like, kind of come up to me and like, not your clients like, your client, I think are different story because of our relationship.

Dave Duminuco: Right.

Jillian Curwin: But just like, the other people that I'm seeing at the gym at the same time. And again it's like, and I don't think they're consciously not talking to me, and I'm also very much in my zone when I am working out. But I think it's like… I remember like, someone came up to me a couple of days ago and was like, we were talking about like, what I was lifting and like, that was the first time I think I've ever really like, just had that conversation with someone about like, my workout. And it wasn't like, I can't believe you're doing that. Or like, in, in disbelief. It was just like an honest conversation about how we were moving our bodies, which you would think that's not a rare thing, but it really kind of is.

And, you know again, part of it is, like you said, like in the marketing, like we don't see disabled people in the advertising, they're not a target market, even though they should be. But even in like, if you go into the gym, the layouts of a gym is not necessarily one that is conducive for different types of disabilities in the sense that a lot of things are out of reach or things are very close together where a wheelchair can't fit, which I think… I don't know if gyms are under the rules of the ADA. If not, they should be, where they should be made physically accessible. And like, also like, the shower spaces and everything like that too. And I think that also plays a part into why we're not seeing disability largely represented. Whereas, like you said like, there's individuals who are showing that disability belongs, but the industry itself isn't necessarily showing it, if that makes sense.

Dave Duminuco: Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. That, everything you said makes sense. Seeing what is out of reach in, in the gym, on the floor space for yourself and other people with disabilities, and the inaccessibility for wheelchairs. I know in the locker rooms, I think there's one wheelchair shower in the men's locker room. I don't know if there’s one in the women’s.

Jillian Curwin: There's one in the women's. I don't know though, because I pointed this out in another fitness studio and they actually did change it, in almost nearly every locker room I've ever been in, even in the wheelchair accessible stalls, the like shower stalls, the soap is out of reach.

Dave Duminuco: Oh right [inaudible]

Jillian Curwin: So it's kind of like, well, once you're in there, you're like, well, that doesn't help me. So I did get a fitness studio here in New York, I got one to lower it, to lower in one of the shower stalls, which is great. So now that's like, my new campaign. I'm trying to get all the studios to lower one, at least one, would like to start with at least one in each bathroom, like each locker room.

Dave Duminuco: That's a very, that's a very wise note. But yeah, that makes a lot of sense and I, I didn't think about that, but that makes sense. Yeah. And in raising the point about the weights being out of reach, um, yeah, that's a really good point too. And I don't, I'm trying to think how… I suppose making the weight racks, some of them lower could be more, or I'm sure there's some wise inventor out there that could make…

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Dave Duminuco: A [unintelligible] machine that makes it accessible.

But Jill, when I see you in the gym, tell me if I'm wrong, you access,it seems all of the equipment that you… I mean I want to say that you intend to use, but I don't really know because what you might intend to use you don’t get to use. So you tell me. I mean, maybe treadmills? That's probably a hard one.

Jillian Curwin: Treadmills I can reach. I…Certain ones the way like, where the buttons are, I can reach. There are some other treadmills where the buttons are out of reach that I can't use. I know there’s one thing that we always used to use, which was the ski machine. The ski erg.

Dave Duminuco: Yeah. The ski erg. Yeah.

Jillian Curwin: So it's like, it's, it's like on these cables and you're like, pull down, like, as if you're using ski poles, and that I can't use without assistance. There is a couple, and there's like a new, which I'm like playing around with like a hip thrust machine that I saw…

Dave Duminuco: Oh yeah.

Jillian Curwin: Like I think that came in?

Dave Duminuco: Yes. And it's perf-, ever so perfect placement. [laughter]. Right, right where it is.

Jillian Curwin: Yes. Yeah. I heard the shade in that.

Dave Duminuco: For anyone who doesn’t come to Equinox Park Avenue, we have this awesome, new hip thrust machine. It's just it's, it seems very out of place where it's put.

Jillian Curwin: Yeah.

Dave Duminuco: But that’s okay.

Jillian Curwin: Yeah. That's oneI'm figuring out, because that's a new piece of equipment that I've never seen. But in terms of like, other equipment that's out of reach, like cable machines. Like if they're up high, if those settings up high and there's no one around, I can't use the cable machines, or things like a lat pull down, which is where you had to pull like, there's some of them like…There's the one I know, type, that I can't use because it's out of reach. Same thing with…I feel like there’s one other thing that I’m…Or same thing like, or with the squat racks. If there's no one around for me to adjust it, to help me adjust it, and the things are out of reach, or like the Smith machine, then if it's out of reach I can't access it.

Dave Duminuco: You know, and that, that, that's, that's a really good point. And that also makes me think of something else, besides just making the machines more accessible. But there's, at least at Equinox, we have a floor trainer…

Jillian Curwin: Yeah.

Dave Duminuco: That should be there at all times to help, what we were always taught, was to keep the floor looking good, nice and clean, everything accessible for everyone. And something that I didn't really think about until right now that we're talking about, is helping, helping people access tools and machines that they might need help with, not just like, hey, can you find or change the channel on the TV, but can you help me pull the lat down, the lat pulldown bar when I, when I'm ready to do my set. That's a great point. And probably one of the best, if not the best, because it's directly related to a human. Right?

Jillian Curwin: Yes. And I'll say in my… in their defense, because I do see them there and I've definitely become more open and asking for help. It took a long time for me to ask for help because I'm very much of a stubborn person where I don't want to ask for help. And then it will be, if it's out of reach, I won't use it. So in their defense like, just because I do know that they're there and now I have gotten to the point…And also again like, that feeling of like, actually belonging in that space, even though I've been there for over a year at this point, it's probably been a year and a half at this point, but still like…Every day I still, I think and it's just partly because they don't see other people who look like me, and I know this is completely in my head, that I feel like I walk into that space and have to prove myself. And have to prove that I belong in that space. Because I feel like if I don't, then it kind of reinforces that unconscious belief that disability, that little people don't belong in gyms.

Dave Duminuco: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I understand you and I and I think we talked about this last night a little bit, too, that feeling of out of place-ness or insecurity surrounding yourself, being there. Um…

Jillian Curwin: Mmmhmm.

Dave Duminuco: And, and yeah, that makes sense. And I, and I, I, I feel for you. That's, that's really unfortunate. I have… I can't say that I completely understand because I haven't lived a day in your life, but I, you know, just with my own struggles with mental health, or my own personality, that has definitely given me a little bit of insecurity surrounding being in the gym sometimes. But I can say, ummm, I think society has set the gym in our culture up in a way that is definitely more supportive of myself for who I am, biologically presenting, than you because I'm normal or an average height…? What do you…?

Jillian Curwin: Average height.

Dave Duminuco: Average height. That makes more sense. That's… yeah. Thank you, Jillian. Average height. Right? So like all… I see myself represented a lot in the marketing, in the culture, and the campaigns and that would make sense that you, that you feel uncomfortable a lot. And I think we talked about this a little last time. I've raised, on my own little soapbox, this idea of like, why don't we see other body types besides…

Jillian Curwin: Yes.

Dave Duminuco: Besides little people, but even even bigger people, people that are considered overweight in society, or in our culture. Or why do we see more disabled people? Or men with gynecomastia? Or…? Yeah, I mean, there's just, there's an endless spectrum of people and the way that we come into this world right?

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Dave Duminuco: But what is it that sells, I suppose, is most important to most of our culture. Jillian Curwin: Right. And I think it's redefining, and I'm trying to think of how to phrase this correctly to get my point across right, like what being fit looks like. And I think there is one like, very standard definition and like, ideal body type that everybody has in mind that society perpetuates. And you know, I see people in the gym who I would say are incredibly fit, but don't fit that mold. And I'm talking about, and I'm saying like non-disabled people even, who just have different body types, and are incredibly fit, and are doing things that I wish I could do… and have tried to do and maybe shouldn't. But like, I see that. But like, their body type isn't what society tells us is quote unquote fit.

Dave Duminuco: Yeah.

Jillian Curwin: And I think that maybe is also like, kind of like, what needs to change is like, kind of redefining who belongs in fitness. Because I think there's just this belief that like, you know, we say like, we tell people if they're, you know, like you need to change your body, that you need to change your body to look a certain way. But yet the spaces don't make you feel welcome to do that, or to even make yourself feel mentally and physically stronger, then something in that…something needs to change in that.

Dave Duminuco: Yeah. Yeah, I agree. I agree. And I think that you showing up and you doing your podcast and everything that you do with your social media is, is, is great and, and exactly what needs to be done. And I'm sure that you get messages and contacts from people saying how influential and important you are to that, right?

Jillian Curwin: Mmhmm.

Dave Duminuco: And so, you know, every every little thing that seems insignificant and maybe frivolous to you, or other people in the same place as you, is really important. And it’s, it's huge. I myself, as a coach, sometimes get messages from people that I don't even know or people that I do know. But, you know, I haven't talked to in so long, or I don't feel close to, or aren’t in the forefront of my mind, and then they’ll message me saying, “Oh, you know, I love seeing your post. They're so uplifting and so inspiring. It really means a lot to me.” And, and I think like, oh, okay, cool. You know, where I might feel insecure because I feel like I don't fit the mold, or the fit archetype myself. So am I…is my voice valid? Does my voice deserve to be heard? Or have space? And I think every time you do raise your voice and make yourself heard or seen, it makes it a little easier for yourself. And also you get a little more confident in yourself.

Jillian Curwin: Mmmhmm.

Dave Duminuco: And that love for yourself grows. And I, thinking about what got me into training, was a lot of that wanting to feel that sense of confidence, wanting to feel the way I saw people look in ads, you know? And I think that's why Instagram and social media is so popular and, and, addicting because it's like, selling an emotion, or advertising an emotion: If you subscribe to me, you will look like me, or you'll feel the way that I present myself looking. And that can be a slippery slope, but can be a really empowering platform for a lot of people. And yeah, so I think it's, I think it's great what you're doing. I'm sorry if I went off a little bit.

Jillian Curwin: No, no, you raise an interesting point, and I want to again ask this correctly. And if you're comfortable with answering, you say like that you didn't necessarily see yourself in that like, fitness ideal… ideal body type. And I'm curious as someone like, because I see you and I'm like, he's a trainer, and he's doing things that again, I am trying, you know…You post I think it's like, on Fridays you post an exercise and I'm like, I bet I'd be trying that on Saturday. And there's…Go ahead.

Dave Duminuco: Yeah, I get a lot of inspiration from you on those.

Jillian Curwin: So, I'm like curious and like, why… or what do you see? Like, why don't you see yourself fitting into that?

Dave Duminuco: Sure. So, thank you. I grew up as a very chubby child. I was 210 lbs in fifth grade. So, it's kind of wild to think of that now that I weigh 176 lbs and I'm 32 years old and 5’10”. And I think, god what would I look like at 200 lbs with muscle? And then I think back, wow, I was 210 lbs in fifth grade. Wow. That's, that's, that's a lot of weight for that age. So I grew up overweight and maybe not with the most support for myself. So, it was a lot of trying to feel successful, but based on a scale that wasn't my own.

Jillian Curwin: Okay.

Dave Duminuco: So, trying to feel good based on expectations that weren’t my own. And, and so that's, that's kind of hard for, I think, anybody. And I think that's relatable.

Jillian Curwin: Mmmhmm.

Dave Duminuco: So kind of coming, coming up through that, and then being really stuck on this idea that I needed to do something with my life that gave me purpose, and fulfillment, and brought me joy, and wasn't just about paying my bills was a huge part of my twenties, and luckily I found training. I think I was, wanted to be accepted by people, and feeling like a fat kid growing up, I didn't feel accepted and I was kind of shown that this was not a lovable body. And when that happens time and time again, you kind of ingrain this idea in yourself that okay, I'm lovable, but maybe if I change this, I'll be lovable.

Jillian Curwin: Yeah.

Dave Duminuco: I think some people deal with that in different ways, consciously or unconsciously. And that's what a lot of marketing or advertisements try to, try to capitalize on. But for myself, I lost a lot of weight in high school by playing football, or at least playing football until we started tackling stations, at which point I decided this was not for me. And I pulled out, and I'm really happy about that decision. But then later, throughout my twenties, I was always thinner but always still felt fat. And one of the reasons why I felt fat, and one of the reasons why I was really pressured to lose weight, was because I have a condition called gynecomastia, which is breast tissue that men have, a lot of men have it to varying degrees, it's a spectrum. But basically it's breast tissue that won't go away, whether you are 2% body fat or 32% body fat. It's just part of you, unless you get surgery. So you can eat very, very healthily, you can exercise very mindfully and target it, but it just will not go away. So growing up with that, I was actually brought to a plastic surgeon in fifth grade. And that was really uncomfortable position and situation for me, and it has obviously stuck with me my entire life and really made me feel like I was less than or not worthy. I wasn't, I wasn't good enough for a lot of things, but definitely the gym and presenting in a fitness room. Absolutely.

So I think that my journey with fitness began as an attempt to mend those wounds and kind of make myself feel more secure in my own body. So, when I finally decided to become a personal trainer, I was in better shape. And I felt like I feel better when I workout and I can see myself looking better to me, or more presentable to society's expectations of what a man should look like. Right? Because having gynecomastia makes me, and I think other men, feel more feminine, or less masculine or more…why, I think more feminine. And up until really recently, it wasn't, you know, now that we're breaking down gender norms more regularly and what is considered okay for men to be, masculine or feminine? Well, they can be both. And men can be beautiful and women can be handsome. Right?

Jillian Curwin: Yepp.

Dave Duminuco: Like, this is…we’re just breaking it all down. But it's still kind of a… it still takes time for, for people, myself included, to wrap my head around that concept and accept like, oh, I can, I can have gynecomastia and still be handsome or, or a sexy man. Right? I'm just like, you know, and there's 100 different ways to look at that. But working through that is what drove me to become a personal trainer. And when I first started, I definitely faced those insecurities on the floor, trying to talk to people, I felt so insecure. Talking to former college athletes who epitomized the archetype of what fitness is. And I felt like, you know, they wouldn’t, they don’t want to talk to me. They don’t want to work with me because they probably look at me and think he's still out of shape. And then you talk to people, and they don't think that, most of them, and they're, they're actually very nice, and they don't really see you the way that you see you, but they see your value and the expertise and knowledge that you have of your of your career, or your past. And so it definitely took some time to feel as confident as I do now. But, but it definitely, it definitely took some time.

Jillian Curwin: Wow. Thank you for sharing that part of your story because I didn't know that. And it's interesting, you know, so much of what you said, like I relate to and like it's again, interesting because like we come, we have different experiences in our own bodies and like… I think it, again, it shows that like we need to, conversations like this need to be happening on a larger scale to kind of break down what that archetype of fitness is and redefine it. I think that's what really needs to happen now.

Dave Duminuco: I agree. I agree. Yeah. There are days that I feel really great, and I feel super confident, and there are other days that I don't. And I think you're right, we need to keep having these conversations. I will say that therapy has helped me a lot. Right?

Jillian Curwin: Yes. Yeah.

Dave Duminuco: Virtual high five for therapy. Let's go. Yeah, it took I, I work obviously with a lot of clients. And people, you probably understand, when they show up to their personal training session, it's not just about physically training. There's…

Jillian Curwin: No.

Dave Duminuco: Right. You know, your brain, your entire selves. And we talk about a lot of things. It has a lot to do with being deeply healthy and healthy on a larger scale, not just physically, but mentally, and emotionally, and spiritually, or socially too. And, and your community. And I think that, yes, showing up every day and talking and having honest conversations and admitting when you're not, when you don't know, and being open, having a beginner's mindset of I'm here to learn. And, you know, I, I'm always open to, to learn new things, is really important because that's how we do kind of move the pendulum or the dial little by little. So, I think it's very important that you're there and doing all these conversations. And, and I thank you for having me on.

I, I believe, yeah. A lot of therapy and a lot of conversations with open dialogue helped with that. And, and being, I think being brave to a certain degree, too. There were a lot of, there are a lot of clients that I have, and have had, that I might not have had if I did not insert myself, or put myself out there, because I trusted myself and relied on myself to, to, to have that confidence. Right? Instead of saying, they probably don’t want to talk to me because they think this about me. I think, you know what, I, I know who I am, and that's, that's good enough. Let's go.

Jillian Curwin: Yeah.

Dave Duminuco: So kind of being my own judge of what is and not acceptable. You know?

Jillian Curwin: Mmmhmm. I think it goes the same like, on my end too. It's like that same thing again, like not wanting to ask for help because they're not going to, thinking that they're not going to want to help me, or they're going to think that of why is she using this in the first place? She shouldn't be here. And again, recognizing that a lot of this is in my head, and any time I've asked for help, everyone has always been accommodating and helpful. So recognizing that.

But I think again, and it's like that willingness to learn. And I'll say, and I know we talked about this last time like, with your education, that there isn't a section or course on like, teaching for clients with disabilities, again reinforcing that like, disabled people wouldn’t be clients. And working with you, and you weren't the first trainer I've ever worked with, but there was an openness with how you approached training me that really like, surprised me. And I wish like, other trainers kind of would follow that, and like see that and, and again, that's why I was like every time we were doing something like, let's record this, let's show you training me. And so we could put it on social and want to brag about whatever cool and same move we were doing. But also like to show you and say like, this is what the trainers should do. Like this is how the approach should be- to be open, and recognizing that if it's not in the curriculum doesn't mean you can't learn about how to do it. And if more trainers were open and saying I will train disabled clients. If you have a disability, and you want to work out with me, come. Let's do it. Let's figure this out. I think that, even that is, would, you know if more trainers did that would be huge, would be monumental. Because I think, again, because disabled people maybe don't feel welcome, and a lot of it is because like, they don't know what they can do. They don't know what… how to modify, like, it took me a long time to figure out how to modify some of the equipment. And there's still some equipment that I'm always looking at like, how do I…, there has to be some way I can modify this, but I don't know how to do it yet.

Dave Duminuco: Yeah.

Jillian Curwin: And again, I think like breaking down those walls that, a lot of them are mental, speaking for myself, at least, a lot of them are mental. You know, again like, saying like, let's have these conversations. Let's make the gym, you know, we say it's open and inviting, but like we're saying it that, in the advertising and the way it's set up, for a certain type of body.

Dave Duminuco: Absolutely. Absolutely. I think you raise a couple of good points there. One, what you just said. Yeah, it's, it's for a certain type of body. So let's get some more, let’s get some better representation in our marketing campaigns [unintelligible].

Jillian Curwin: Mmmhmm. [unintelligible]

Dave Duminuco: But also, I like the, you really touched upon the, the fact that you don't for help a lot, and what you think other people might be thinking of you, and your, the idea that people need to see what they can do and that usually comes from representation or yeah, because representation. In your case, seeing little people working out doing things, and in my case maybe seeing men with gynecomastia advertised, if you will, as sex symbols.

Jillian Curwin: Yes.

Dave Duminuco: Right. And you might even say, like, tell me if I'm wrong. Is there representation of sexy little people? Are little people view the sex symbols?

Jillian Curwin: That's an interesting conversation to have right now.

Dave Duminuco: I don't mean to crack open an uncomfortable...

Jillian Curwin: No, no, no, no. I'm trying to think of because…

Dave Duminuco: Do you see what I’m saying?

Jillian Curwin: I'm trying to think of how to phrase this. [laughter] Because I have a lot of thoughts on this.

Dave Duminuco: Sorry, Mom.

Jillian Curwin: No, she knows. She's fully…She, she knows. funny. I just try to think of, like, how best to phrase...I think…

Dave Duminuco: You understand what I'm saying though?

Jillian Curwin: Yeah, I understand what you’re saying. I don't think we're seen as the traditional view of sexy. I think we're seen as sex is more of like an object, as something to check off a bucket list, as if like we're an item and like, where it's just like, we want to check you off to say we've done it.

Dave Duminuco: Yeah. It's a little dehumanizing, huh?

Jillian Curwin: Very dehumanizing, I think, though. And it's, it's kind of like… I'm trying to, how to think of how to phrase this so people understand. So that's a, it's not like...

Dave Duminuco: I think, not to cut you off.

Jillian Curwin: Yeah, go ahead.

Dave Duminuco: But it is a bigger, deeper conversation. It's, and it sounds interesting, because like what is considered sexy? And like the first thing that I can think of is like we see a lot of like, what is considered sexiness in representation and in music today. A lot of, and I'm trying to be mindful about what I'm saying, everyone that's listening, I don't want to offend anyone. But it seems like a lot of black women in rap present themselves in a very sexy way. And you see that a lot, and I love it. I'm there for it. But then we also see someone like Tierra Whack, who is a black female rapper, who is always wearing like, turtlenecks and really goofy, cartoony stuff. And so the idea that you can represent yourself in different ways is really nice and cool to see that spectrum. So, just introduce that angle into the conversation of like, you know, how do you, you or I even need to represent ourselves to be considered sexy? Like, what does that even mean?

Jillian Curwin: Right? And I think, okay, so I was like thinking about like, how do I word this? So, I think little people are fetishized, but we're not seen as sexy. And there is a difference. Again like, kind of like, that objectification.

Dave Duminuco: Good point.

Jillian Curwin: And, you know, that's part of the reason why I sometimes I, I'll post it, but I know when posting a photo of me, or a video of me at the gym, where I'm only wearing a sports bra and shorts and, you know, it's like… I used to never want to show my stomach. I would never like, it took me like, till like last year where I would just be comfortable wearing a sports bra and leggings or shorts to the gym without covering myself. And it's like, oddly enough, even though I'm the most exposed in that sense, at the gym, it's also where I kind of do feel the most secure in my body. And it could just be because I'm strengthening it. But I know when I post it I'm going to get comments that are going to make me feel objectified, that are going to fetishize me, and that are not… like it's, they're not seeing my body the way I want it to be seen. They're not recognizing, they're just seeing this object, essentially.

And, you know, it's hard and it's like, it's not going to stop me from posting because I think the overall message that I'm trying to send is getting across to the people who I want, who I want it to resonate with. But even with other photos it's like, knowing that no matter what I'm wearing really, but especially with my gym clothes, that there's always just going to be that like, objectification, and that I'm never going to be, you know, it's there's like the fetishization there.

Dave Duminuco: Yeah, that's, that's, that's a good word. And that's, I think a better word for it. Yeah. You see that in I, I suppose yeah, with little people and in other facets too. But that's interesting that you say that that's, it's awesome that you feel most secure with less clothes on.

Jillian Curwin: Which is weird. It's a very weird thing. And I didn't even realize that. I realized that literally throughout this conversation that we've been having over the past 40 minutes now. That I had that realization.

Dave Duminuco: Really? Jesus, well, I think we...

Jillian Curwin: [unintelligible] Good.

Dave Duminuco: But it sounds, it's honestly, Jill, I think it's really healthy and it's really good because it's showing, at least from where I'm sitting, is like a greater sense of self-acceptance and self-love. And while you were saying that I was thinking, you know, I also feel really good and proud of posting pictures of myself without my shirt on. Where I used to, in the past, feel so uncomfortable and insecure about it because I always felt like everyone now is going to know that I have gynecomastia. Oh my God, like what's going to happen?

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Dave Duminuco: Turns out a lot of guys are into it, and girls you know. It's like it's, it's okay. And, and I think that maybe that, that idea of being more comfortable is because it is like, a greater risk and for a greater reward, right?

Jillian Curwin: Mmmhmm.

Dave Duminuco: You're more vulnerable the more we expose ourselves. Even having this conversation and being on this podcast, we're making ourselves vulnerable by recording an open, honest conversation, where missteps might be made, but like we've said 100 times, that's how we learn and make better steps next time.

Jillian Curwin: Exactly. And I think yeah. And it's interesting that, like, I feel that way, like that you feel that way into places where we didn't necessarily see ourselves belonging, and sometimes still don't see our bodies represented.

Dave Duminuco: Yeah.

Jillian Curwin: And again, like, it's kind of reinforcing this, what we've been saying this whole time like, we want to see that change, we want to see that representation, and it's like, you know, when is it going to happen? I think we…There's so many times we talk about it, but I'm like I'm like, and again, that's like why I want to, I've been considering like, entering this space, but then it's also like, okay, obviously I can't spot someone. I couldn't spot someone like, again, like what I said at the beginning, like there's no way I can spot someone my height, even…maybe not lifting the weight I do. But like, even just like, doing the barbell by itself. Like, I don't know how I would necessarily spot someone. So it's like, what does then a disabled trainer look like? Like, where do you see, as someone who's in this space. What if someone who doesn't fit that mold of what a trainer should look like, how do they, if that's what they want to do and that's who they want to be, how do they do it?

Dave Duminuco: That's a, I mean, that's a really good point, Jillian. That's a really great point and question. And a couple of things. One, about making it happen and, and seeing what we want, I think it's about taking, taking action yourself. Doing what you're doing is the best way to make it happen. For me, in my own experience, feeling insecure and uncomfortable with talking to certain people, the best way I've, I've always been this way, whether like, I can't even help it, I don't think, and most people who know me know this, I talk a lot. And I, and I insert myself in positions where maybe I’m not welcome and I’m like, I want to go there and I'm going to go there. But that's how I've actually met so many wonderful people in the gym, and made so many wonderful clients, and really broken down this paradigm in my head that I'm inferior in some way because I talk to these people that I have projected this idea on to that they're going to be an asshole because they look like an archetype of something that I grew up with. And then I talk to them and it's like, wow, this is the nicest person in the world.

Jillian Curwin: Mmmhmm.

Dave Duminuco: Oh, god. Who am I for thinking they're an asshole? Do you know what I mean? And so it's, it’s very humbling. And I say to a lot of my newer colleagues, you know, don't judge a book by its cover. Try, do your best to be open, and approach every situation as a new day and see what you can learn from everybody. Because more often than not people, in my opinion, are better than we think they are.

Jillian Curwin: Yes.

Dave Duminuco: And in the gym space they're there, and some people don't talk to anybody, but a lot of us feel insecure in some way, and that's why we're at the gym, to try to work something out. And we all, I mean we all need support. And I think we all want support in one way or another, or at least to be seen or heard.

So I would say keep talking to people. And if you do need help, or if you do want help, or just want to talk to somebody, go talk to them. Because I think that, like you said before, or people have been approaching you saying, wow, let's talk about your workout, there's probably a lot more people that see you that want to talk to you about how much you squat, because you squat so much more than a lot of people in the gym. Also, you do so much crazy plyometrics, or balance and stability work. No plyometrics. I'm meant to say proprioceptive work where you are using a lot of sensory input, re-balancing on four kettlebells or plates, you know, and I mean, it's, it's, it's remarkable for anyone. So I say keep talking to people and, you know, inserting yourself into those positions and situations.

And I've been rambling on, so I'm failing to remember the other point that you made that I wanted to touch upon. You were saying?

Jillian Curwin: Like other body types as a trainer was like, kind of like, the last thing I was saying.

Dave Duminuco: Other body types as a trainer. Oh, how would you…? I know it was. How would you coach people, as a little person, where you can't necessarily spot them on a barbell bench press, or you can't hand them a weight, or you can't, you know, spot them on a back squat?

Jillian Curwin: Yeah.

Dave Duminuco: That's a great, that's a great question. That is a great question. And I, I don't know if I have that answer. That's a really good question. But it makes me also just think of how many brilliant minds there are in the world who don't have the physical capability to, to, to do certain things. But yet that's clearly not as important as what's up here, or in here. Right? It's, it's what you bring, what you show up with, and who you are as a whole person, not just your, your shell. You know? Like Stephen Hawkings. Right?

Jillian Curwin: Mmmhmm.

Dave Duminuco: Or, in my own life, my aunt, who I think I talked about last time, was in a wheelchair all of her life basically, or since 17, and was so active in her communities until the day she died, basically, up into her eighties. And, and she was in a wheelchair, like I said, her whole life. So it wasn't about her being in a wheelchair, but her, that wasn't the focal point.But it was about everything that she brought to the table. And of course, she faced adversity and a lot of, and a lot of set back. But what the hallmark of her was that she didn't let it stop her. She just, you know, she wanted to go somewhere and she did. And I guess that's what rubbed off on me, for better or for worse.

Jillian Curwin: Yes. I think for better. For better. You know, I think yeah. I guess like, it's like thinking like, why I still haven't given up on this idea yet. Like I think, again, it kind of goes back to wanting to see more disabled bodies at the gym, more different bodies at the gym who don't again fit that archetype. And, you know, with using my platforms and what I'm doing, like, how do I then take it that next step further and also give back? Cause again like, working out and going to the gym has helped me tremendously. And, you know, yes, posting the content is great, but like, what else can I be doing? And also again wanting to change things. This is another way that I thought that, to do it.

But again, like I think, I think this conversation has been like, so meaningful in ways that I didn't expect it to be. I mean, I knew it's going to be amazing, but like, this is just, there's like…I feel like and I get, like, Equinox, I hope you're listening. Like, we want to like, it's possible. I think that, and especially because a lot of spaces aren't doing it, I think to really, like, open the doors and say, and like, at least have the conversation, bring disabled people in to have the conversation about like, what would the gym have to look like for you to feel welcome here? What do we have to change? And seeing what's possible. Cause we… like we’re, and I talked about this on the last episode like, disabled people are incredibly resourceful. We can solve problems, again, solve problems, find solutions, and we recognize that it's not going to work right away. The first solution may not be the best solution, but we're willing to try. So I think like, just wanting to see that, and again like, even the guys like, you know, who we talked about who like, fit that type of fitness mold that I was like, intimidated, and still kindof am, to talk to…When I do talk to them, they are some of the nicest people. They are incredibly nice. So like, I think again like, just breaking those bound-, those barriers down and redefining it, I think that's what I want to see, and what I'm hoping this conversation does, what I'm continuing to do with my content, what you're doing with your content. I mean, I have to believe it's possible.

Dave Duminuco: I, I think it is possible. And I think that we see it happening. And it's hard to see when you're kind of in it, right?

Jillian Curwin: Yeah.

Dave Duminuco: It's like my dad says, “You have to take a step outside of your fishbowl.”

Jillian Curwin: Yeah.

Dave Duminuco: But I, I think that you pursuing a career, or to whatever degree you want to do training, I think it's brilliant, and I think you should because I don't, I don't know what that would look like, like I said. But just because we don't know what it looks like, or hasn't been done yet, certainly doesn't mean it should not be done. And it probably means that it should be so that we can understand it better. I, I, I would love to see you become a trainer and I've been thinking about what, yeah. What would that be like to have Jillian on the team? It’d be so cool. But it just, in my head I’m, I'm kind of taken aback in thinking about all of the opportunities and possbilities that it would bring to scale for yourself, and other people with disabilities. Like we, I know that the Peloton bike was a big thing for you for a while, which what's going on with that? I'm curious.

Jillian Curwin: I mean, as you can see in the background and I've talked about my bike many times, it is a adaptive kid's bike. I got mine from Amazon, and I know there's a lot of people in the little people community who are now getting it. We have a Facebook group within our community where we do talk about health and fitness and a lot LP’s have gotten it. I will, if it's on Amazon right now, I will include a link for it, because I love it.

And Peloton, they do have a disabled instructor. He's amazing, and they are developing some adaptive strength training programs, which is incredible to see, for both seated adaptive workouts and standing adaptive workouts. And I think I kind of… I think that like, you know, again, like when you see it, and I think it also comes from like, me wanting to enter the space more, it really comes down to like, going back to what our first conversation of like, there's no education for training someone with a disability, as a personal trainer.

Dave Duminuco: Right.

Jillian Curwin: And like, wanting to change that, wanting to have these conversations so maybe that people like, make a point and enter the space to say we need to figure out how to bring these people in, how to train them. They move their bodies. It may not be what we think of as typical movement, but they do move their bodies. They are capable of moving their bodies. And let's teach ourselves to teach them. Let's teach ourselves to train them, to, you know…I think we're always, and the gym is a space where we do kind of test everyone, regardless of what your body looks like, test the limits of what we're capable of, and let's test the limits of like, what a trainer can do, you know, and train someone with a disability and see, you know, like and you did that with me way…a long way [laughter].

Dave Duminuco: Yeah. I, I, I agree. And I also just think, you know, when fitness first started, it was like, not personal training, but just going to the gym became popular by someone named Jack LaLanne back, a while back. It was a new thing for everybody. And then it was a new thing for like, women to get into the gym. Right? And umm, I’m blanking on her name. She was really big in the eighties and she got a lot of women into fitness. But…

Jillian Curwin: Jane Fonda?

Dave Duminuco: I think it was Jane Fonda but…

Jillian Curwin: With the, with the aerobic workouts?

Dave Duminuco: Yeah.

Jillian Curwin: Yes.

Dave Duminuco: And then even like, for a while, it was thought to be unwise for pregnant women to exercise. And now that's completely different, you know. So, I think that just as time goes on, it's natural for more of an awareness to, to grow in terms of fitness and what's okay and what's not okay, or what's possible. So, this seems just like a, a newer frontier to us that you should definitely keep, keep driving ahead towards. I think it's great. And I think yeah, I think, I think you do a lot of good, you put out a lot of good content, and just like I said, showing up every day, and that little community that we have. I mean, granted you come first thing in the morning at 6:00 AM where there’s not too many people there. But the people who are there you, you have that sense of community and everybody, you know, for the most part interacts with each other, and is friendly, and yeah. I, I think it's really important. I, something I might challenge you to do. I mean, I don't… thinking if it’s a good idea or not.

Jillian Curwin: Do it.

Dave Duminuco: But I, I mean, I would say go at a peak hour and see what that's like for yourself.

Jillian Curwin: What's a peak hour? Because one of the reasons why I go, and confession time, why I go literally when the gym opens, is because  knowing, especially on days where like, I know I need the squat rack and I know like, I'm more like, using the fit-, the machines, rather than like, using the dumbbells or the free weights, is because knowing that there are machines that I can't use, so it's wanting to be able to go where I'm not going to be waiting, or that I'll have the most access to the equipment that I need.

Dave Duminuco: Yeah.

Jillian Curwin: And a lot of people don't go at 5:30 in the morning.

Dave Duminuco: Yeah. No, that makes complete sense. Sorry to cut you off.

Jillian Curwin: No, okay. So then I’m wondering, so then… Okay, so what is peak hour at our gym?

Dave Duminuco: Well so, peak hours would be probably 7 a.m. to 9 a.m. and then like, 6 p.m. to 8 p.m. I'm not… Let me explain why. What you said, your reason to go early in the morning, makes complete sense for you, for me, for anybody who is passionate or, or serious about their lifting, or who wants to achieve a certain goal without, with the least amount of barriers. I suggest, or think, it might be interesting for you to go at a peak hour because I think the, the group of people that come in the morning when you are there, it's, it’s a quiet time. Right?

Jillian Curwin: Yeah.

Dave Duminuco: And so people, so I wonder, and, and, and you kind of felt what that's like. And so I wonder what it would be like for you where there's a lot more people there. Would they be, would there be more of a sense of interaction? Would there be less of a sense of interaction? I don't know. And like I'm not, I don't know if this is a good or bad idea. I mean honestly, I wouldn't, I, I, and I'll say this now, I wouldn't really suggest to most people to go with, at those peak hours because it's so busy…

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Dave Duminuco: And if you want to get shit done, really hard. So, I'm saying that to you too. But I'm just, maybe for yourself it might be interesting to see what that is like. I don't know if it's worth anything, besides being a pain in the ass, but like I said earlier, I, I get a lot of ideas and I just shoot them out there sometimes.

Jillian Curwin: Well, I'll say challenge accepted because, as you know, working with me, I don't say no often to challenges. And when this comes out, this is going to come out in a couple of weeks, in a few weeks, I will, when I do like the Instagram post announcing this episode, I will share the results. I will go more at peak hours, see what it's like. Kind of, actually kind of nervous because again, like, knowing that there's only so much, you know, I can access a lot, but knowing that there is only a certain amount, and it's a whole new crowd who may or may not know me because I feel like I come and go with the same people every time…

Dave Duminuco: Yeah.

Jillian Curwin: And oh, it's, I'm, I'm intrigued by this challenge.

Dave Duminuco: Also, just like how many people are there. So myself as a coach…

Jillian Curwin: Yeah.

Dave Duminuco: I coach clients at these peak hours in my, all my colleagues say the same thing. We have to kind of carve out like, a square on the floor like…

Jillian Curwin: Right.

Dave Duminuco: Okay, this is my square. I have like from here, and my colleagues make fun of me and say, “Oh, there's Dave's playground,” because I have so much [unintelligible]

Jillian Curwin: But it's true.

Dave Duminuco: It is true. But at these hours, it is very busy. And so, even for myself and most people, it's, it's a little more challenging because there's so many more bodies, which means there is less open equipment and more... I think, I'm thinking about this now, I think that there's more interactions because you kind of have to be like, hey, are you almost done? What's going on? And so I'm curious for you what that would be like putting, you know, because you said you, I mean, you said, and I know you don't like to ask for help.

Jillian Curwin: No.

Dave Duminuco: And so being in that position where you kind of had to possibly step out of your comfort zone and be interacting with so many more people, you know, I'm, I'm curious for you, if you, if you wanted to.

Jillian Curwin: Kay. I will do this. And again, if you're listening to this and you haven't seen my Instagram post announcing this podcast episode, go check it out because I will share the results of this little experiment there. So stay tuned for that. I'm very excited.

Dave Duminuco: Yeah. I mean, who knows? We might, you might find that everybody is just seeing you doing what you do in the morning, that is remarkable, saying, wow, I want to do it. I want to do that. Teach me how to do that.

Jillian Curwin: Right. Hopefully. We'll see. I don't know the people who go at peak hours, so we'll see what happens. I'm very intrigued by this.

Dave Duminuco: There's plenty of them.

Jillian Curwin: I know I asked you this before, and I don't remember what your answer was, but it's a question I always ask is who do you look up to?

Dave Duminuco: Mmm. You did ask this before. I don't remember who I said.

I look up to my dad. My dad is a very open minded, patient man who has taught me a lot about being patient, and keeping the door open, and, and taking time between actions, taking time to think and, and recognize impact, and really just, just take, taking their time. Yeah.

Jillian Curwin: Love that.

Are there any questions I have not asked that you would like to answer?

Dave Duminuco: Question you haven’t asked. Ummm, I don't think so. I don't think so.

Jillian Curwin: Okay.

Dave Duminuco: So, I will say that a lot of, we've talked about confidence, or lack thereof. And I do want to say that so much of my confidence, and I'm curious if other trainers are listening or coaches are listening if they feel the same way, comes from my clients - seeing them and hearing them show up with all of their own insecurities, and then looking at them and thinking maybe, well, I don't see those insecurities, right?

Jillian Curwin: Mmmhmm.

Dave Duminuco: I see you doing all these amazing things. It just really helps keep my feet on the ground and remember, like, you know we're all human, too, and you just can't judge a book by its cover. It's, it's always so humbling. And so, I mean, when I say it, I mean it. Like, I love all of my clients and want them to do the best they can. And it's, it gives me a lot every day that they show up because, you know, I'm a human  too. And there are days that sometimes I'm like ugh, you know.

And actually I heard this wild quote about willpower and I think that… I just think that we all, we all make a choice every day, you tell me if I'm wrong, to go to the gym, and to do everything that we do.

Jillian Curwin: Mmmhmm.

Dave Duminuco: It's not just like, okay, I'm going to the gym. It's like, I think I'm going to go to the gym today.

Jillian Curwin: Yeah.

Dave Duminuco: I think I'm going to make some breakfast and, you know, take a shower and do this or that, right?

Jillian Curwin: 100%. Like even today and it's like with, you know, physically like, you know, sometimes it's more just like, mentally like, I just need to go to the gym. I need to let out the stress. I need to just kind of like, be in a space where I'm moving my body, where I need like, feel like that I'm getting stronger. So I do think that it is, you know, it is a choice regardless of why you're making it, and your reasoning for working out like, I do think that there is some willpower in there and like, like that deciding of like, waking up and deciding to go to the gym that day.

Dave Duminuco: Yeah, there's willpower, there's agency, there's, there's a, a, yeah, a choice in that. And that's, I think, a really empowering thing to remember that you do have a choice.

Jillian Curwin: Yes.

Dave Duminuco: And that you are, you're not just to, you might think you are, who people, people tell you who you are, or who you see or you don't see, but you do have a choice. And, and, and I think that I also see that in a lot of my clients, too, and I think you probably saw this, too, where it was like, I don't know if I can do this. And I say I know you can do this.

Jillian Curwin: Yeah.

Dave Duminuco: I'm sure you can do this. And not to, well here's a little plug for coaches or trainers like, this is why I think everyone would benefit from having a trainer, or at least working with one for a period of time because it shows you really what you can do, and what you're capable of, with a professional or an extra set of eyes to show your blindspots and help you connect the dots. Because even for myself that's why, why I work with a trainer. Sometimes because, because we all need support.

Jillian Curwin: Yeah.

Dave Duminuco: We all need support. We can’t do it alone. And we're human so there's, there's an ebb and flow to those, I don’t know, good vibes, if you will.

Jillian Curwin: Yes. I couldn't agree more with that. I know that…where was I going with that? Okay.

Where can people follow you, see what you're doing, see the workouts you're doing? You know, plug yourself.

Dave Duminuco: Sure, so you can find me on Instagram, @daveduminuco. That's D-A-V-E-D-U-M-I-N-U-C-O. I don't really use Facebook. I don't even know if I know my password or login anymore. It’s been like, ten years. And I don't use Twitter. So I'd say Instagram is probably the best place to find me. I have an email address with same name but David. But yeah, I try to put out positive and, and realistic content. If I'm having a bad day, Jillian knows, I don’t want to bring other people down, but I think it's okay to show up as yourself fully. And just because you're having a lousy day doesn't mean you shouldn't come to the gym. And actually, yeah, that's my plug for myself. Dave Duminuco.

But I'll pivot a little bit and say something else that I think is really important to me, and I saw recently, is this idea that we, we can show up however we, we need to show up or are that day. I sometimes have tough days and I, I get really sad. Some days I'm really happy but some days I'm really sad. And I have cried on, I'm pretty sure, we just got a whole bunch of new trainers at the gym, but at least five or six of my colleagues have held me while I'm crying at work.

Jillian Curwin: Yeah.

Dave Duminuco: And I feel so grateful and blessed to be working in a space that supports that, that lets me express myself, how I am feeling honestly, and supports me, and makes me feel safe, and secure, and heard and seen and not ashamed like I shouldn't be here. Dave, you're a coach. You're supposed to be giving people confidence. You can't be crying. Well…

Jillian Curwin: Who says?

Dave Duminuco: Right. Exactly. I mean, that's probably my own thing, a little bit. But, but yeah, for myself, being able to show up that way is so important. And the other day, I don't know her name, but there is a member who I see often and she was crying. She showed up, I saw her walk in, and I just saw her, her eyes were red, and she had been crying, and I could see her going through her workout and she was crying visibly. And my heart went out to her and I felt bad. But at the same time I was just kind of like, I love that she is here right now though, because clearly something's going on, but she is making that choice to show up anyway and not be quieted or rubbed out because she doesn't fit the mold, you know, in the same way that we were talking about being a little person and being a guy with gynecomastia. She doesn't fit the mold of like she's on ten and ready to go. You know, she showed up anyway and, and did what she needed to do to feel healthy. And I grab her a cold, or asked my colleagues to give me a cold towel, and I gave it to her, and she seemed like she would kind of be left alone. But again, this is me inserting myself whether people like it or not, maybe for better or worse. But I just want, I gave it to her just to let her know, like, hey, you know, I see you. You're safe. You're okay. I'm glad you're here. And, and that was just really, really awesome to see her showing up that way because, yeah. I mean, we're not all happy. We don't, I mean, happiness isn't the goal. It doesn't have to be, right?

Jillian Curwin: Mmmhmm.

Dave Duminuco: But I thought that was really important to see that type of representation too. And maybe that, hey, maybe that's what you need to see on the gym posters are people crying like…

Jillian Curwin: Yes.

Dave Duminuco: Do you feel this way? Do you want to feel that way?

Jillian Curwin: I, I have cried on many days at the gym. So yeah, and I think, you know, you do see it, and it's a more, like again, like creating that again. It's just, it goes back to creating a welcome environment, and you want to create a welcoming environment physically, mentally and emotionally as well. So…

Dave Duminuco: Yeah. Yeah. And I think we do a pretty good job of that at Equinox. But I, like everything, we can always do better.

Jillian Curwin: Like lowering the soaps.

Dave Duminuco: Like lowering the soaps. Okay, let's, let's raise the standard and lower the soaps.

Jillian Curwin: Raise the standard and lower the soaps, that's all I ask.

Dave Duminuco: Yeah. Let’s do it. Let's do it together.

Jillian Curwin: Perfect note to end this conversation on.

So, I don't know, did I have the icebreaker game with you at the end, last time? Do you remember?

Dave Duminuco: I think so. I think so.

Jillian Curwin: Okay.

Dave Duminuco: I don't remember it, but…

Jillian Curwin: Okay, well, if… I think I did, I think at this point, I did.

So I have, again, five categories. I have different ones from what I usually do. And I just want to hear your favorite in each one. Again, I like icebreakers at the end because it is more fun that way and it is my podcast and that is what I decide to do.

Dave Duminuco: Well, okay.

Jillian Curwin: Okay. Favorite movie.

Dave Duminuco: Favorite movie right now, because it perpetually changes, is Isle of Dogs.

Jillian Curwin: Okay. Favorite music artist.

Dave Duminuco: Hmmm. Right now…Oh, I just discovered this awesome guy. His name's Jon, I think it's Jon Batiste. I just, hold on. Let me look really quick. Well, I’ve been listening to a lot of Kylie Minogue today, but I got to say Jon Batiste maybe. The album We Are, banging. Banging. It, it's like R&B and soul. So good though.

Jillian Curwin: Awesome.

Dave Duminuco: So good. Yeah.

Jillian Curwin: Favorite cuisine.

Dave Duminuco: Ooo, favorite cuisine. Damn, now we’ve got more stuff I want to talk about because I've been trying to eat so much food. I'm now trying to gain weight, and we're talking about that. And that's probably another big conversation in terms of the fitness world. Favorite cuisine right now I, I've been cooking lot more recently and I cook, it's got to be, I think, my fried chicken tacos.

Jillian Curwin: Ooo.

Dave Duminuco: Yes, I make a mean fried chicken taco people.

Jillian Curwin: Okay.

Dave Duminuco: And if I'm eating out though, it's going to be Italian. I love gnocchi…

Jillian Curwin: Yes.

Dave Duminuco: And burrata.

Jillian Curwin: So good. Favorite vacation destination.

Dave Duminuco: Hmm. Where I want to go or where I’ve been?

Jillian Curwin: However you want to interpret that question.

Dave Duminuco: Okay. I just got back from Amsterdam about a month ago and I had a great time there. So I'm going to say that, yeah.

Jillian Curwin: Amsterdam is one of my favorite cities in the world.

Dave Duminuco: Oh yeah. I forgot you told me that. Yeah.

Jillian Curwin: I love Amsterdam. Shout out to my Dutch cousins.

Dave Duminuco: Yeah, shout out to all of the wonderful people in Amsterdam. You know who you are.

Jillian Curwin: It's a beautiful city. I love it.

Last one. And you might have answered this I think earlier, but it could be a different one. Quote to live by.

Dave Duminuco: Something that I saw the other day that made a lot of sense to me, “You can always start over.”

Jillian Curwin: Oh, I like that. It's very simple, but it resonates. I like that.

Dave Duminuco: Yeah, I saw it as a meditation teacher I like a lot. Sharon Salzberg, she's really awesome. And she had a post that just said that. I think it said, “You can always start over,” or “It's okay to start over.” And I reposted it and it just, yeah, you know, it made a lot sense to me. You know, we have bad days, some things that feel heavier than others, and it's okay to just start over.

Jillian Curwin: Mmmhmm.

Dave Duminuco: And when we're not going to get everything that we want to. And sometimes it's okay to start over. Or, or actually this is another good one. Sorry. Can I give you one more?

Jillian Curwin: Yes, you can.

Dave Duminuco: Okay. I'll give you this one more. I saw this quote on someone else's Instagram that said, “Whether you keep going or you quit, both will hurt.” Yeah, I think that's what it said. “Whether you keep going or you quit both, it will hurt,” and I like that because it's kind of this idea of like, there's no bad choice or there's no…

Jillian Curwin: Yeah.

Dave Duminuco: You know, it's kind of where you are at. But if you, if you give up now, that's going to hurt. And if you keep going, it's probably going to hurt too in some ways. So…

Jillian Curwin: That's true.

Dave Duminuco: You know, maybe you don't have to start over, but keep going. So I don't know one of those two.

Jillian Curwin: I like both of them. I think they're both great and they're perfect note to end on.

Dave, it is always a pleasure talking with you. I'm sure I will be talking to you tomorrow.

Dave Duminuco: Yeah. I’m sure too. I hope so.

Jillian Curwin: Yes. Whenever you are listening to this, I will probably be talking to Dave tomorrow.

So, last final, final thing I have to ask is for you to just remind my listeners, in your most badass voice possible, that height is just a number, not a limit.

Dave Duminuco: Hello to all of you wonderful people out there in radioland. Height is not a limit, but just a number.

Jillian Curwin: Always Looking Up is hosted by Jillian Curwin, and edited and produced by Ben Curwin. Please make sure to rate, review, and subscribe and follow on Spotify so that you never miss an episode. Follow me on Instagram @jill_ilana and the podcast at @alwayslookingup.podcast for updates and check out my blog JillianIlana.com for more content about what it is like to be a little person in an average sized world.

Thanks for listening. See you next week.

Follow Dave:

Instagram: @daveduminuco

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