Zane Landin On Grief And Disability
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Jillian Curwin: Hi everyone. Welcome to Always Looking Up, the podcast for no one is overlooked and height is only a number, never a limit, hosted by me, Jillian Curwin. Each week I'll be having a conversation about what it is like to live in a world that is not necessarily designed for you.
To start, I would like to issue a trigger warning. This episode talks about death, grieving and mourning. If these are triggers for you, please feel free to skip this episode.
In this week's episode, I welcome back. Zane Landin. Zane is a mental health and disability advocate, queer rights activist, entrepreneur, and positive changemaker who identifies as Hispanic, queer and disabled. He is the founder of Positive Vibes magazine, which is a digital magazine dedicated to telling authentic stories about mental health, wellness and inspiration. After sharing our individual stories with grief, we discuss how being in a state of grief can be disabling. The misconceptions about what grief is and how it affects someone, and how grief like disability is a very individual experience. Let's get into it.
Hi, Zane.
Zane Landin: How's it going?
Jillian Curwin: Good. How are you?
Zane Landin: I'm doing well today. How's everything going for you since I was last on?
Jillian Curwin: Everything's going well. Yes, I'm very excited to have you back. Welcome back to Always Looking Up.
I know this is a conversation we talked about having right after we wrapped recording our first episode and so, I'm really excited to be having this conversation with you now, to have you on the podcast. Yeah, it's gonna be great.
Zane Landin: Yeah. Thank you so much. I think that the topic of grief is not something that is openly talked about in the aftermath of the pandemic. I think we're still seeing a stigma associated with talking about grief, even though it was very relevant and impacted so many people during the pandemic, especially during that time. So it's interesting how we're still kind of seeing an avoidance of talking about such a touchy subject. I understand why, but I think what people were around, especially children, I don't think we should be closing off this conversation.
Jillian Curwin: No, I agree. And before we get into it, just in case no one listened to our last episode. Could you give a little brief introduction as to who you are?
Zane Landin: Absolutely. Sorry.
Jillian Curwin: No, you're good.
Zane Landin: I’m Zane Landin. My pronouns are he/him/his. I'm a recent graduate from Cal Poly Pomona with a Bachelor of Science in Communication and PR. I'm looking for a career in communications, PR, and storytelling. I'm from California, Chino, California. I've been here for 24 years. I identify as a mental health advocate, a disability rights advocate. So I'm always looking for ways to make the workforce more accessible, more equitable, and just kind of destigmatizing it or demystifying it in ways that we don't see: if that's workplace wellness, talking about grief at work. A lot of different things, that's things I'm always working on. So that's a brief introduction about me.
Jillian Curwin: Perfect. And like you said, you hinted it, at it before. We are talking about grief and disability because it is something that, at least as far as I'm aware, and like you said, it's not really discussed in the community or even outside the community. Just in general, grief is not discussed. And I think that there are a lot of misconceptions as to the grieving process, why we would grieve for certain things, and just kind of how it affects the body mentally, physically and emotionally.
I want to start by asking, why did you want to talk about this?
Zane Landin: I wanted to talk about this because I just want people to understand what grieving really is. So I’ll start off with my story with grieving. I was someone that never experienced really any grieving before. The people that have passed away in my life, I was too young to really comprehend what that even meant. So I really never knew about them. Their presence didn't really impact my identity, if that makes sense, because there's actually a whole conversation about we grieve people not necessarily just because we miss them, but because they had such an impact on our identities. Which is why when we grieve like, people who are musicians, people we don't even really know, it’s because their work has impacted our identity so much that we grieve that loss of identity as well, which is pretty interesting.
Anyways, so my mom passed away in January, January 7th of 2021. You know, she's always had a history of having hernias. That was always a issue for her. She always had hernias. For the longest time, I didn't know her without one. Even when she would have to have a surgery to get rid of the hernia, it would just kind of come back in the next, in a year or a couple of months, actually. And she was having horrible stomach pains, of course, and she ended up having going to urgent care and they had to do an emergency surgery on the hernia. And I'm sure you heard the saying that some people shouldn't go under anesthesia because the heart, or the heart can't handle it. That was the case. And so she had a heart attack in her sleep and, and had, had a hard time waking up. It was pretty, it was pretty… how do you say it? Like it feels so surreal when my dad said that when… not the heart attack, just the, “She had trouble waking up.” So for me, I immediately went to denial because I was like, well, she's had this problem before. She'll be fine. And, you know, that's kind of what I told myself. And it definitely all transpired because, you know, you have like, so many different feelings going on and you have to let yourself experience them.
I don't know if I did at the time because I really didn't grasp what was going on. And this wasn't long ago, you know, it wasn’t when I was young. So like, even as an adult, you know, it's easy to kind of like not understand really what's going on, or have this feeling because you see or you see the people around you in a certain way, especially if your parents have been so supportive, you see them as like, maybe superheroes. So since my mom had a lot of, you know, health conditions all the time, I was always like, she's gone through like, so many surgeries. She has battled and survived cancer. She can handle this, you know? So it's easy to kind of succumb to that. And, you know, my dad even went to the hospital and she was hooked up in a bunch of machines and he said that it was hard to see that. Luckily, my sister didn't see that because I really wouldn’t, I probably wouldn't have wanted to see that. And I will say right now, I think that my family and I, we were fortunate to be able to see my mom because this was still in the pandemic. And I don't remember at the time. I don't think, I just don't know. I'm trying to remember if there were vaccines. I don't remember. But even if there were, like my mom didn't get vaccinated yet. I don't think it was readily available yet, at the time, actually. So I didn't know anyone that actually had it yet, really, because I think they were prioritizing people who are older and more at risk. So my parents weren't able to get one yet. So anyways, so the pandemic was still thriving. And, you know, we were lucky that we were able to actually see her though, because I think one of the hardest things was there were many families that didn't get to see their loved ones pass away, you know what I mean? And a lot of them didn't get to mourn them either, because, you know, and the difference in mourning and grieving is, you know, grieving is like your internal feelings about the passing, but mourning is your actual public mourning, like giving them a celebration or funeral. So there is a difference between the two. They're connected. They're connected, of course, but like mourning is different from grieving.
Anyways, so she ended up passing away in her sleep. I tell myself it was a peaceful death. I really hope so. But… But you never know. I mean, but I think it was. And what I find really interesting is, I know this may go into some interesting territory here, but when you talk about the physical effects of grieving and how it feels on your body, what's interesting was I think I was, I was having a kind of a breakdown and I was FaceTiming my partner just, you know, in tears. Something, I don't really experience. I don't cry a lot and I don't know. I didn't know what I was going to do. I said, I don't know what I'm going to do. And he just told me to go to sleep and you know, try to feel better, get some sleep. And so I did, cause it was like three in the morning and I did fell uh… I did fall asleep. And then what's interesting is the next morning I had like, weird chills, like when you have the flu. And I don't just get those randomly. It doesn't come naturally to me. And I always thought that was eerie. And I think I knew what they meant. So it's interesting is… you definitely need to feel your body when you're grieving because it can have some interesting messaging, and at the time I actually wasn't grieving, that's not grief yet. That's like anticipating the grief.
But, you know, my dad kind of just came into my room and he just told me to come out in the living room. And I was like, why? And I think I already knew by how my body felt. Like I really could feel that aching, like as she probably left, you know. And so we came to the living room. My sister was there and my, my neighbor was there. And I think because she saw my dad when he found out on the phone. So that's why she was there. And it was, it was nice to see her there, but they were crying. So I was like, I don't wanna know what's going on. I don’t want to deal with this. And so he told me what happened. I was sad, but I didn't cry really. I didn't really know what to think. Again, I didn't think it was real. I thought it was maybe a dream. I still wish it was, you know. And so, again, luckily, everything just happened so fast.
So like, in the next hour, we're driving to the hospita,l and like I said, we, they put us in like these suits because like, of course, we got to see her because she didn't have COVID. Everyone else in the ICU had COVID. So, if she did have COVID, we wouldn't be able to go in there. So again, some good, some good something to be gracious about, you know, or have gratitude because I, I am happy that I got to see her one last time. And, you know, it was it was just it was just definitely a weird feeling. It's, it's hard to explain, like seeing a dead body. I'd never seen a dead body, and it being your parent, and so I just felt really uncomfortable. Of course, you know, it's not something you want to see, of course. But, you know, it was nice to have like, that last moment.
And also, it was, we did get to mourn her, which was really nice. We had an event actually just in April, so it was like a year and a half later. Basically we actually mourned her, which it's just, it's a complicated process to mourn someone. It's, it's not easy. And so sometimes I’ll say expect there to be issues and drama. That happens, but don't let it impact your relationships. Because I'll be honest, it did.
Jillian Curwin: Yeah.
Zane Landin: Like, you know, mourning someone is not easy. And sometimes people take it personally. Sometimes people aren't thinking straight and sometimes they disconnect. Sometimes they will not want to, you know, be in contact anymore. And this is just my personal thing, you know, but I think a lot of families experience this. But I'll just say, when you're mourning someone, just try your best to be understanding to other people and just try to be together. But sometimes it just does not work out and sometimes it's completely, sometimes it’s completely out of your control. And I think, in instances like that, try not to blame yourself and just, you're going to have to just accept what's going on and know that you wouldn’t treat anyone else like that.
Anyways, that was it, was a great event though. You know, I got to give the eulogy and it wasn't like a typical one. I had like, my poetry in there. I brought up, like, Harry Potter and all these different elements that my mom and I shared. And it was just great to hear the other stories that people had and a great way to just have this community celebrating her. Because I view death as… I try to, I try to view death as a celebration rather than a passing. And I think, because also I started the Positive Vibes magazine, and because of that, a lot of conversations I have, maybe not a lot, but a good chunk of conversations I had with people are on death and the afterlife. And so I will, I will know people that are mediums, that talk about communicating with one’s who have passed. I have talked to people who are angel healers that tell you when angels enter your life. They say when you, and I'm sure, as you can understand, when you grieve, it comes randomly. It's never like this. It's never like this, like predictable process where you know when it's going to hit you. You, you don't know when you're going to become emotional at all. I mean, I think like at the time when you first grieve, it's a little like, you understand, like maybe you're sad almost every day or every other day. But afterward, as like your… the process of grieving becomes less intense and emotional. It may feel like that, but there'll be a day you’re just listening to a song and you're in tears and you're like, What happened?
Jillian Curwin: No, and it'll happen years later even. It'll happen. Like, it's not something that just happens in the immediate, or even like the somewhat aftermath. It happens even years later and to start, like, I am so sorry for your loss and thank you so much for sharing your story. A lot of what you said resonated with me and my story, and it's not something that I've I'm going to talk about it, but I haven't yet.
So my story is, and I've definitely mentioned it, but my dad passed away on Halloween in 2015. And so, I had seen him, I was just, had just transferred to Rutgers University at the time. Everything was going really well. And I had just seen him ten days earlier for his birthday, which is on the 21st of October. So all the family got together because he just turned 60 and everything seemed to be going, you know, everything was great. It was a happy moment.
And then I was getting ready to go out with friends. This is, I guess the night of the 30th, going out with friends for Halloween, going out with my roommates. And we were walking out the door, like, almost walking out the door. I was still sober at the time. I remember like, that kind of being like, a good thing looking back and I get a call from one of my uncles saying something happened. Don't know what's going on, but like, your dad's in the hospital. And I knew he had headaches kind of going into that week. He had really bad headaches. He'd been to the hospital. They didn't see anything. I talked to him earlier that day. He seemed to be fine. Like he was like, still kind of there, but he seemed to be okay. So I'm thinking it was just related to this and I was kind of told like, one of my uncles was going down later, like the next day or like… I was kind of like, made to seem like I didn't need to be rushing to get down there. And so like, okay. So I called my mom to figure out what was going on and she kind of from what I remember, this is all very blurry. Like, somewhere along the way, it was made clear that it wasn't as, as it seemed like it was. It was a lot worse than it seemed. I was told I couldn't drive, because I was about to get in my car. And but, I was like told, my mom, like said specifically, I do not want you driving. I don't want you driving. And my, I had an uncle in New York, so he was taking an Uber down. So he picked me up and on the way down... So this was like, my dad is in Philadelphia, at a hospital in Philadelphia. So it's like, about an hour drive. And then my brother calls me and basically tells me that my dad is not going to wake up. He's alive, but he was just, he's not going to wake up. So I'm crying. My uncle's crying. So luckily I was on my way down because I really wasn't going to go down. I was like, because I was just under that impression.
So I get there and you know, run upstairs, my brother's waiting for me. He helps, he leads me upstairs. And, you know, I see my dad and like you said, kind of like in the same situation that you saw your mom, except it wasn't COVID. So I got to spend some time with him and then eventually the plan was like, my grandparents are coming in from out of state. They're in Florida. They were going to come up so they could say goodbye. And the plan was like, we're going to go to a hotel, my brother and I, my uncles and… No, I was going to a hotel with my uncles, my brother was going home with a family friend. And we would say like, our formal goodbyes the next day. And we think that he didn't want us to have to really say goodbye and have to, like, make the decision. So he peacefully passed on his own that night and yeah.
It was, I think, and this is like, something I’d just been thinking about with breaching this topic with you. Grieving, and the process of grieving, and the process of mourning, even still to this day is more disabling on my body mentally, physically and emotionally, than my disability, being a little person itself. And it was hard because at that time, part of, part of guilt for not being there when it happened and everything, I was trying to keep it together and do as much as I could at the time. Because we're Jewish, and things kind of happened really fast in terms of the grievingm and the mourning, and everything. So, trying to do as much as I can to take everything off my mom's plate that I could, and that…I am like trying to like, keep it together, make the phone calls that had to be made to let people know what happened, so that way my mom and my brother could break down. And a lot of that was like, in my head, I don't necessarily think I had to do that, but that's just kind of like where my head was at.
And we had the service, and there was a lot more people than I thought would ever have gone there, which I'm still to this day just amazed at. And it just kind of like, resonated that my dad really did make an impact on so many people's lives, such a positive impact. And all my, my grandpa spoke, his brothers spoke, he is one of four brothers, a couple of his best friends spoke, his former employer spoke. And it was like a 6:30 a.m. decision, at least for me, that I was going to speak. I wasn't really, wasn't planning on it. I couldn't find the words to say, which is ironic because at the time was when I started doing this dwarfism awareness posts every day. So I had been posting every day, and yet here I couldn't find the words. So, so I somehow found the words to speak. And both my brother and I did. And it was really amazing that years later we had the recordings of it. So I was able to turn all the speeches into a book to kind of celebrate my father, which I think was important for all of us to have to kind of just have something, to see the photos of him, to hear what people had to say, to be able to read what we had to say, because listening to it is a lot harder than just being able to read it.
But yeah, in the days, weeks and months that followed, my body truly shut down. And there's this quote from Grey's Anatomy, and I'm going to, that's it's like, early season two, when Grey's Anatomy was really good, where one of the… Whose father was it? George's father dies. And Cristina Yang, played by Sandra Oh, says that there's like a club and once you're in you're, and you never want to be in, but you never truly understand until you're in. And that's kind of how I felt with, again, like you said, like with other members of my family who didn't lose their father, who like… I pushed everyone away. I tried to without trying to be mean, because I wanted to be mean. I think there's a part of me that wanted to let all my anger out on other people, but knowing that I really couldn't do that, I really didn't want to do that. Like, I think I kind of internalized it even more. And I remember like, at one point like, my roommates who were, at the time, who were absolutely amazing and absolutely supportive of me, like they were sitting in the kitchen and they invited me in just to kind of like… They knew I was probably just going to sit there. But like, they were just like, come sit with us. They were talking about who knows what. And I started walking in and I just, like, physically stopped. I could not move like I, my roommate came in, and was like, had, like, she might have had to pick me up. I don't remember. But like, I remember physically not being able to move like, that just…
And you know, I was at college, I was away from my mom and my brother and I couldn't be with them. So I would call her every day, multiple times a day, crying. I mean, I, I call her multiple times a day now, I'm not crying all the time. But like, I really could not function. And in trying to get other people to understand what I was going through was very challenging, especially at college. It felt like, and I don't know if this is like in the workplace, the grieving, and I know you were in work, you were... Oh no, you were in school when you lost your mom.
Zane Landin: Yes.
Jillian Curwin: So like, I don't know what it's like for, in the workplace, but I know at college, for me, there were some people who were not understanding, not willing to give an inch. And the, the, the just, the lack of empathy, I think at that time where I was just looking for just some, something. And I wasn't getting, it was just, it was shocking.
Zane Landin: Wow. Well, thank you for sharing all that. I know it's incredibly hard and, and I'm sorry for your loss as well. I find that interesting to me. It just makes sense, though, that like when associate, university level, so many people do not understand what that means. Like I was even told, like, you're, you're so young to lose a parent. I'm like yeah, and I wish I was a little older, you know? It kind of is what it is. But yeah, a lot of it's…I think it's hard to find community with young people in this area because a lot of them may have not experienced it. And we also don't know, because grieving is such a taboo topic, that so many people do not want to talk about it.
Jillian Curwin: Right. And there are people who aren’t in that stage. I think it took me, to get to the point where I was grieving, to want to talk, like to really want to talk about it and want to understand it. But I, for me, didn't want to talk about it with people who weren't there because I really felt that they wouldn't understand. And I needed to talk to people who did understand. And like you said, because we were both young when it happened to us, there weren't many people who did, who were our age.
Zane Landin: Yeah. So that's what I mean when I say I understand people not like, showing empathy. I don't, I don't understand. I personally get it, but I understand, because they really are not in that headspace. And I think that you can do as much as you can to anticipate the grief, because even I said I don't know how I'm going to be. When my mom passed away, or a family member passes away by, I think I'll be okay. Well, it's true, though. I mean, I was okay, but like, I did not know to the extent what that was going to feel like until I reached that point. You know what I mean? You never, and this, this sounds like kind of sad, but, you know, you'll never really know what it's like till you reach it, ever.
Jillian Curwin: Yeah. And no, I think that's true.
Zane Landin: Yeah. And I think that there are, there are cases that are interesting, llike when someone has a, maybe like a terminal illness or a life threatening illness. And then like, I think families have this mixed position where they're grieving them in a way, but they're not exactly gone yet. And so that's why for some, when someone passes away, some people have grieved for years, and maybe for them it's a relief. Maybe for them they don't, they're not grieving after because they kind of experienced it. But again, you never know. Every situation will be different. And there's always a weird dynamic of, I always see this, where you're completely surprised that someone passed away or you were kind of knowing, of course. I mean there's, of course, there's every in-between, but I see a lot of cases like, that where you knew it was going to kind of happen or you were a complete surprise. Like in your case, it was a complete, you know, surprise. And yeah, it's, I don't, I rather would not have to experience it, of course. But, you know, I always wonder what it would have been like if I got to experience it knowing beforehand that it was going to happen. I don't know. I don't, maybe I wouldn’t have, because I don't know if I could handle my mom coming to that realization.
I don't think that she’d come to terms with that because I, I know my mom and I know for her she would feel guilty. She would feel guilty for herself by saying I'm leaving my children, I'm leaving my husband, I’m leaving my family. That's how she would see it, because she always… This is how parents are. But they, of course, want to take care of the people around them, their family, their children. And so, I don't know. I don't think I could see, or come to terms with that. It would just be too horrible. But it's still, I don't want it. I just don't want it at all. I mean, and I know that there are some people that can say, like, oh, I accept the death. I accept that this happened. But for some, that's not the case, and I'm not there yet. So it just happened still like, it only happened
Jillian Curwin: Right.
Zane Landin: Like, a year and a half ago. And so for some, I know, some that will say I've accepted it. You know, this was, this was their time. I'm, I, I do understand that. And I love reading things about the afterlife when it's someone's like, time to go, but it's still really hard to come to terms with because it just is. I don't know. It's, it's a, grieving such a hard thing to explain.
Jillian Curwin: It is and I've said this for a long time, and I've had conversations with people mainly in my family, because, again, they get it, about acceptance. And, you know, that's… they say it's one of the five stages of grief, and it's going to be seven years in October for me, and I still don't think I'm at acceptance. I've kind of, in the sense that, like, I've accepted that he's physically not here anymore. Like I think there's that, but I think there's still that not accepting the fact that he's truly gone, that he's not here, and even, it's hard. You know, there's so many things that I'm experiencing, things that we’d love together that I don't, that I'm always questioning, what would he think about this? What is he thinking about this? Or really, in moments needing his advice and needing to know like, what he would think? And knowing that I can't get that answer from him.
And, you know, I was a daddy's girl. I was definitely daddy's little girl, up watching sports with him. And he was my person that I really, you know, him and my mom. But I think sometimes, depending on the situation, like, he was really the person that I really talked to just about life, things that maybe sometimes I felt like I couldn't talk to my mom, or just like, I had different things that I went to them for. But just knowing that like, I'm not going to have those conversations with him and, you know… I think grief, like disability, you know, grief is a, is one term, but how everyone experiences it, the same way with disability, with specific disabilities and disability in general, it is very individual. It affects everyone differently and you don't know how it's going to affect you until you're put in that situation.
Zane Landin: Yeah, that's completely true. And also one of the things, I mean, because I resonate with everything you just said, and also just the, you don't get to hear their voice anymore, or their touch, and you don't get to see their reactions to the, to the stuff that you're doing, you know. Because like, a lot of the stuff in the past year that I've been able to do, I know my mom would have been incredibly excited, and she would have been super proud because like, a lot of stuff that she was, had such an interest in. She always had an interest in like, NASA, she always had an interest in like, the White House and like, all that stuff I got to do this year. All, was all about that. I just can't imagine her reaction. And so I always try and just picture what it would be like. You know what I will say, though, I think what's helped me with the grieving process is very, I think, it's very it's different. But for me, I've had to use like, imagination to keep the journey going. So, what I mean is I daydream a lot to music, and I can't tell you how many adventures I've been on with my mom where I'm saving her life. It's a very weird thing, but ever since my mom passed away, that's been like, the main thing I think about when I listen to music is like, being in this place where I can save her life, or we're doing something magical. I know that it's all I have right now, and I still have the memories of her before, but that has helped me because I really think about her in such a good light and the good stuff. Because, you know, with grieving we always focus on the sadness because it is, I'm not going to say it's not, it’s very sad. But I think sometimes we get stuck in that, you know, and like, I've had to kind of distance, I had to distance myself from some people because it could not...How do I explain this?
I understand everyone’s at a different grieving process, so then understand I am to them. And so, when I would go to their place like, some of my family and I would get really frustrated with some of the things that they were saying because they just like, were saying things that I knew you don't have to tell me this. Like they were saying, like, oh, it's so horrible that, you know, your mom passed away and like, you'll never be able to see her again. Oh, hey, I get this. You don't need to keep saying this like it's, I want to be nice about it. So I never said anything I, like I was biting my tongue, but I was like…
Jillian Curwin: Right. Like I said, like I was… And I remember we went on a family vacation, like, right after with all of us. And it was a vacation I didn't want to go on like, I really didn't want to go on. And I just remember, like, I had this one vivid memory of one of my cousins coming up to me, just to talk to me, wasn't even to talk about like, my dad, it was just to see how I was doing. And I think I physically like, bit my tongue to not say anything mean to her, to not push her away because I knew I really didn't want to, but at the same time I really didn't want to talk to her. So no, I get that like, that there's like, just this like, you and… you don't know how you're going to react in a situation. You just, you don't know. You can't predict. I think grief is very unpredictable.
Zane Landin: Yeah. And before you know, after we, I didn’t share this, I went into something else. But, you know, after my, I think it's really important. I know not everyone has this, but, and I know that it, you, you want to be alone when you're grieving and some people definitely need that. I thought I would need that, but I didn't want to go home. So after I just actually went to my partner's place and we were just, I don’t remember what we did. I just remember that we were, I remember we talked about things. I remember crying a lot because that was actually something I didn't know if I would, because I guess I don't cry too much. I really only cry to music a lot, but like outside of that I usually don't. So I think it was good. I was like, okay, it's good. I'm getting all this out. But it was good to have someone there and he knew when to give me space, even though we were in the same exact apartment. And, you know, just having to talk to some people because my dad took up the responsibility of telling people, and I know you said you had to tell people. I am very happy that I didn't get to tell people cause I did not want to rehash everything and I did not want to hear people's reactions. It was just really hard. And I did tell my friend though, because my dad didn't have his number.
But anyways there was, it was good to have someone there, especially since someone who lost two parents. So because my partner lost both of his parents as well. So he definitely knew the entire, how it felt exactly. So that was, you know, sometimes it's nice to have, and sometimes our natural instincts are to push people away. But I'm glad I didn't do that, but some people need that. Like, I'm not saying that that's the only thing. That, that's the only way. No. Again, whatever you, whatever you know, you need.
But I knew that I didn't want to go home and I was like, I was so upset cause like, afterwards, I think I went home, like, around… Was it like, in the morning? Like two in the morning? Because I was just so hellbent on not going home. I was like, I'm not, I don’t want to go home. I know that's going to be a hollow house. I don't want to be there. Um, and it was when I got there, it was really quiet and dark. Of course its in the morning, but, you know, even like, you know, even maybe, even months after the house still felt hollow because I don't, I don't know your dad, but for my mom, she was the glue that held all of us together. So when that foundation is gone, how do we pick up the pieces? How do we interact as people? Again, because our mom was the reason why we were kind of all together, to be honest with you. So it was hard for us. It was hard for us to find that balance again. You know? I hope that makes sense.
Jillian Curwin: It does. No, it does. And I think my dad definitely was, in that sense, that he really did hold us all together. And again, like you said, like, grief is very individual process. You don't know what you need. And being able to recognize what you need is very important. And I think with this, you know, especially with a pandemic and we've all, so many people have kind of had to grieve. And in some ways, like you said, like you were able to go see your mom, but so many other families couldn't see their loved ones. And so it's like, it's, you know, like you never know what to prepare for. And again, like, it's hard, especially when like, I can't imagine needing something, but knowing because of a pandemic or something that you can't have what you physically, mentally or emotionally need to get you through it, like you said, like it's affected the disabled community so deeply. And it's something that, it isn't talked about. And I'm wondering if part of it is just because there are still some, you know, there are people again, like once you're in, you're in a… But if you're on the outside, you really don't understand. And there's also the feeling from the inside that, like, you're not going to understand, you're just not capable of understanding.
But I think it is something that is so important to talk about both on the individual level, like with you and me, with losing our parents, but also as a community with what we've lost with the pandemic over the past two and a half years. And even before that, with what's been happening, you know, just in general and how society treats disability. And even, I know there are some people who've kind of talked about with, you know, with becoming disabled. If they weren't born disabled, there is sort of a grieving process that sometimes happens too. So I think, again, grief comes and manifests itself in many ways.
Zane Landin: Yeah, it does. And I think that what's interesting is what you said about, you know, when you're in and you might assume that people don't understand. I also think that there's another dynamic that once you're in, you may not want to revisit that. And, you know, maybe people aren't like, where we are in talking about their grief, and totally understandable. Some people don't want to talk about it again. Especially since, for people who revisit it, it's like, it's like they're going through it all over again. And for some, that's it's just too much to bear. So I understand people not wanting to talk about it. I just, I wish there was a way though, that we could have more healthy conversations on death, especially around, you know, like children, you know, to better prepare children.
I mean, like I said, you never know what it's like to experience it. But, you know, when you openly talk about it, you can really identify what you need, what you might experience. And also, it's okay to experience it because there's so many messages out there where, when people grieve irrationally, or they're too emotional, it's like, you cannot be too emotional. But I understand. Like, okay, if you're like, maybe screaming at people, that's different because you’re treating people in a certain way but like, it's fine to cry. It's fine to be irrationally sad. It's not irrational at all, actually. So let's not say stuff like that and just kind of be understanding and also, like I say, try your best. I know it's hard, but try your best not to take things personal. I know that sometimes it may seem like someone's pushing you away, but still try to be present. That doesn't mean you have to always be there for them. But even if it's just a weekly text message or a check in, stuff like that, even if they're pushing you away, sometimes I think that they might need you the most when they're, when you're, when they're doing that. You know what I mean? They're just, they just have to go through what they're going through.
And an interesting message, cause I was talking about the magazine before I talked to someone that had a really interesting idea of angels, and again this is, this is what I believe in. And everyone else has their different belief system. It was very interesting. What she said was, when you are going to the day and you randomly picture them in your head or you'll have a dream about them, that's when apparently the angels are close, which I think is really interesting. And so that's when the angel of the person who passed away or whatever you identify them as, that's when they're close. Sometimes even like something you've noticed, something you've always resonated with them, like a butterfly, like sometimes when I see a butterfly, I'm like, Oh, my mom's close. Because even my friend, he said that when my mom passed away, he saw a butterfly. I thought it was really interesting. My, my friend’s a little more spiritual than I am. And he feels more things. Even, there was a time where we were in the living room just doing tarot, and he said he felt a wave. That was my mom. I was like, that's interesting. I didn't feel that. So I believe in this stuff and I know it's okay. Some people don't, because everyone has their own belief system. Some people don’t believe there's life after death. But for me, it's given me hope, so much more hope than I ever thought. So I even saw like, a documentary on the afterlife. It's called like, The UnXplained. It's on Hulu. And I saw, like, episode six is about grieving, and so I was like, oh, you know, I'm putting that, that one on first like, I'm not going on episode one, we're going on the grieving episode because that's, or the afterlife episode, because that's what I want to hear about. And I just, I find it very interesting like, a lot of people who've experienced near-death experiences, all kind of, all kind of like, describe a very similar sensation. It's very eerie enough to not think it's a coincidence because some people will say people were just having elated or very vivid dreams. And then if everyone is describing a very similar sensation, it's interesting. There's even like, shared death, which is like sometimes when someone passes away that you're very close to you’ll kind of experience, the death in a way, like you feel them passing, you'll feel yourself experiencing, like you’ll feel it in your bones. It's really so interesting.
Like, I know I’m going on to really weird topics, but these are stuff that I've read about that have given me hope because I, I know that… How do I explain this? Like, it's sad, my mom not being here, but like, if there is proof of the afterlife, and I'm given that knowledge, and I know my mom is okay in some sort of place, I know I'm okay even if she's not here. Of course, that's the saddest part. But if I know she's okay in some other way and she's still there looking on us, and being a shadow or a guide, oh I just, I'll be completely fine then. You know what I mean?
Jillian Curwin: I do. Anyway like, like we said, like, we're not pushing what we believe in, what we thinking, on anybody else. This is just kind of how we've each, individually, have kind of gotten through, and, like we said, it's very individual. And, you know, I was thinking, and something that you said about like, how do we talk about this? And I think the conversation is more to people to just kind of understand how to talk about it, who maybe aren't going through it, and to have that empathy and to just, you know, send a text to someone if they know that they're grieving just saying you okay? And know that they may not get an answer, and know that and not to be hurt by not getting an answer, because there is… I'm, I'm fairly certain that I probably had many unanswered text messages from people like, just like, just asking if I was okay and I needed that, but I couldn't answer.
And that's where the conversation, I think, can happen, where we try to understand grief is just knowing how, if you're not going through it, but someone you know is, how do you treat them. You know? It’s the same thing with disability. How do you treat someone with a disability? How you treat them as a person?
Zane Landin: I think it's, I always think about this like, how do you treat someone with a disability? You treat… how do you treat them as a person? You treat them as a person. That's how I see it is. And of course, people with, people with disabilities have different needs or accommodations but like, you mostly do not treat them any different at all. That's how I think, you know, you know, they may be at different places, and especially since what I find interesting as I was reading a bit about this before, is disability and death is interesting because some people with disabilities have disabilities that are life threatening.
Jillian Curwin: Yeah.
Zane Landin: And it's, it's very interesting. That's why sometimes I think you see, this is why people think of people with disabilities as like, the whole like, inspiration porn, which I hate. But I think because like, there are people with disabilities out there that are grateful for life. Because they're at a place where they may have this disability that really, they may have had to come to terms with maybe passing away soon or like, you only have two years to live. I can't imagine hearing something like that. And there are several disabilities who have those stories. It's very interesting what they have to come to terms with. I will say also, because I know you said was really interesting at the very beginning, though, which is about how grief felt more disabling on your body than disability. I would say that too, that that's how I felt for me. Not my body, but my mind. I felt like... So the mental health stuff that I've gone through, grieving didn’t, nothing felt more impactful to my mental health and grieving did. It’s so interesting how grieving has such a toll on our bodies, our minds, our spirits and everything, especially for people with disabilities.
Jillian Curwin: You just kind of, you answered the first part of the question I was going to ask you, which is did you find grief to be disabling? So then I'm going to ask the second part as a follow up question is: do you think being in a state of grief qualifies as a disability?
Zane Landin: Oh, I never thought of that. But yeah, I do. I wouldn’t say it's exactly, that’s so interesting because…yeah, let me think about that for a second. Because I think that... Is it a disability? I will...
Jillian Curwin: It's a complicated question. I don't know if I have an answer for either. I'm just curious to hear if you had thoughts on it.
Zane Landin: Yeah, no, I mean, I…You know what? There's actually something I think you’d find really interesting. It's, I can’t remember the exact condition, but it's like, I don't know if it's in the DSM, but I know that there's something called like, it's, it's really wrong, but it's like a condition that says you're grieving for too long. And so it's like an elongated grieving process, and that is a mental health condition. So that, I will say I don't think so. I don't think that that's, I don't like that, that, that exists because I don't think there's anything wrong with grieving for years because you do like… Everyone, everyone does like... In my opinion, grieving doesn't end. There are some people that think that the grieving process ends. Like, for some people that believe in the stage process of grief, they'll think it ends at stage five or whatever the stage is. It never does. I think that it just continues. You may be at stage five forever. And so I don't think that grieving ever ends. So I don't think it's okay to say to someone you're grieving for two years is too long. You need to kind of get over it. We don't tell people no… And that's, that's another thing that, you know, for people who are depressed or have anxiety, we don't tell people just to get over it. Oh, actually, you know, people do tell them that. We don't, it's not right to say that. I mean, you know, it's not like we can just tell people you just kind of need to get over it. That's not going to help anyone that's not gonna help the person on the receiving end. Hearing that, and again hearing that who's experiencing such a rough time they’re, that would make me want to be more distant, because it's clear you're not understanding what's going on.
So I wouldn't say the grieving process is a disability, but I think that we need to consider it, that it has a very emotional and bodily toll that like, we should treat it a little similar. And so like if you're going if you have an illness, or a disease, or you're in an injury, like you can get paid time off. I think that when you’re grieving you should get that same, you should get that as well. That should be extended to grieving because it may not be a disability, but in my opinion it's like, very close to how you can feel when you have like, a mental health condition, or like, when you need to go on leave for mental health. Like I feel like, and I know that people do that, but I think I wish it was more like, acceptable to do that because I don't know if it is.
Jillian Curwin: Yeah, I agree. Think it's definitely, I don't necessarily think it's a disability. I think it's disabling and I think, especially in the immediate aftermath of the death, I think it's definitely truly disabling. And even like, look, you know, going on like months, maybe not as physically disabling, and again, every experience is different, but I do, I agree that it does kind of need to be treated almost like an injury or something like that, where it's a temporary disability, where you have certain accommodations made for you in the immediate aftermath. And that again, there is that understanding. And that really, what a lot of people need in that is just time to process because their whole world is changed and it's, you know, they're trying to figure out what their new world looks like.
Zane Landin: Yeah, well, and I, and yeah. I would like to work with the workforce and just every institution to embrace that, that and I think people understand that. You know, it's really interesting. As soon, I thought about that, so if you've never heard of this, I don't know how popular they are, but I've heard of them. They're called death cafes. And apparently they're cafes where people go in and talk about death, and you'll be in a place with other people who are experiencing death or maybe dying. And you actually have this open conversation about death. It's pretty interesting. I don't know how popular they are, but stuff like that is going to get us to a place where death is more talked about because you actually have people who are experiencing it firsthand. They're actually having these open conversations and it must be hard because some of these people maybe just experienced death or even they're going to die. So I think that's really interesting. So I think that there is like needs that, needs to be addressed. Like we just said like, in the workplace, but like culturally, you know, we definitely need to talk about death more.
And we see it's interesting cause we see a lot of death on television. Like, death is so relevant on television, but we still have a hard time talking about it. And for me, like one of the things that my dream for grief one day, if that's how you say it is, I want to go to Mexico and I want to do a, an actual Día de los Muertos altar just because I am half Mexican. My mom wasn't. But I've always found the beauty in that holiday and like just what they what it represents that again, death is a celebration. Death doesn't, it's not an end. And I just, I find that, that… I find that really beautiful and we don't necessarily need to adopt that. But I really wish that, again, everyone's different. But for me, I think that death would feel more acceptable and we could talk more about death if we think of it as not the end. You know what I mean? I know that's not… I know.
And, again, I'm not trying to push my beliefs on anyone, but to me it would just make death so much more easy to talk about because like… I've talked to people who don't believe in the afterlife and it's sometimes it's really hard to have a conversation with them because, especially when they're close to me, like I know them, like I know them closely, and they'll just say, I don't believe in the afterlife. I think it's ridiculous. People do. It's hard for me to hear that. Cause, like, there's something, I don't, there's anything wrong with me for wanting there to be an afterlife so I can see my mom when I, when I pass away. And so I think it's okay to have certain beliefs, but kind of be respectful to others because like I'm totally respectful of people who don't believe in the afterlife. I just tell people, just have an open mind because again, I believe in it, but I don't know. I really don't know. There's no proof that it exists besides the accounts I've heard like, from a documentary or people I've talked to, but we'll never know until we cross that road ourselves. So I just tell people, just try and have an open mind. I try to be more open minded about it. And if there really isn't, that does make me sad. But that's kind of just how it is. You know what I mean?
Jillian Curwin: Mmmhmm. Totally agree with a lot of what you just said there.
Are there any questions I have not asked that you would like to answer?
Zane Landin: No. I think we kind of talked about everything that everything I can think of that has to do with grieving, but I'll just tell people when you do experience it, let yourself experience it. Let yourself go through every single emotion, even if you feel emotionless, because you will. I think that everyone reaches that stillness, that, this emotionless, like you said, there was a time where you couldn’t even move, you know, and so I think a lot of people experience that. Maybe some people can physically move, but in your mind, you feel stuck. You feel like you're at this stillness where you can't move. The world is just going around you. Everything's moving. And that's okay though, because I think some people think, because for me, this helped me. But I know it may not help everyone else, but for me, I still was doing work. I was, still was doing schoolwork. I still was doing everything I needed to do. But that helped me a lot. And I was actually lucky that I was, I was super busy in school, and that was a huge distraction. But I understand that people may not want to do anything and that's completely fine. So I think whatever, whatever you're experiencing, let yourself experience it.
Don't let anyone else tell you what you should or shouldn't be experiencing. If you feel a lot of sadness, even years later, you're still crying all the time. That's completely fine. Just don't don't tell people, don't tell, don't let other people tell you how to grieve. It's your process. It’s your journey, and that's for you to experience. You can take people's advice on what maybe made it easier for them because I don't think grieving ever ends. It just becomes, it just becomes… I wouldn't say easier either. It just becomes like, you're more numb to it. If that makes sense. You know what I mean? Like some people think, like some people say the grieving process takes time. I wouldn't say it's necessarily time. I would just say that time equates numbness for me. And so the like, not numbness, the like, it just becomes, I don’t want to say becomes easier because it's easier. I'm having trouble finding the word. It doesn't become easier, it just becomes more manageable. Like you actually, you know what I mean? Does that make sense?
Jillian Curwin: Yeah. No, I think, and I agree, like numb isn't the right word, though. Other people, I think, might say it's numb. It's like a numbness. It's not even that you get used to it. I think it just, it almost like just becomes a part of you. Like it's just a new part of your identity that you have to…you figured out how you’ve learned to live with it. I think it's… Yeah, it's not that you're numb to it, because I think, again, at seven years later, for me, I still feel it, you know, like it's going to be, you know… I'm recording this, is probably going to come out in October. October has always been a hard month for me and I think it always just will be a hard month for me. So yeah, it's not necessarily a numbness. I think it just becomes a part of who you are.
Zane Landin: Yeah, it definitely changes you, and you may not be the same person you were. And that's, and that's completely fine because in a way, when someone passes away, you may lose an aspect of your identity and you're not the same person. And that's okay. You don't need to be the same person. Cause I know some people say I want the old, I want the old you back. No. This is, this is how, this is just how I am now.
And your identity changes. Because for me, I was always a huge fan of Harry Potter. As I mentioned, as Harry Potter lost both of his parents, I never understood that. I was always very sad to see it. Especially when he looks at the mirror in the first movie and he sees his parents as his innermost desiring. That always made me so sad that that is what a child would want, their parents. It just makes me so sad that that's all he wants. And then… But now it's like, I don't fully understand losing two parents, but like, I understand losing one. I’m like Harry. I actually really understand how that feels now. Like I can actually empathize so much more because of that. So it's like, expect yourself to change. Embrace the change. And again, don't let anyone tell you how to grieve because that's your right and your journey.
Jillian Curwin: Exactly. I think that is the perfect note to end on.
Zane, thank you so much for coming back on and for talking about this with me. Please let my listeners know where they can follow you and see what you're working on.
Zane Landin: Sure. I mean, you can find me on my personal Instagram, Facebook, Twitter and LinkedIn. Just, my handle is just basically my name. And then the magazine is Positive Vibes Mag and they have some pretty interesting articles on there, especially about about death. So if you’re interested, we talk about grieving, we talk about life and very different perspectives on death. But they're all very, very interesting. They all hold weight. I hope you check it out.
Jillian Curwin: Yes, please do. I’ll have links to all that in the show notes as well as links to follow him. Again, Zane, thank you so much. So I know we did this last time, which is the final fast favorites, so I do want to ask you the same questions again, but I am going to do it. I only have four categories and they are all Harry Potter themed.
Zane Landin: Okay, great.
Jillian Curwin: Okay. So favorite book?
Zane Landin: I will say, favorite book slash movie is…
Jillian Curwin: That was going to be my next one.
Zane Landin: Okay wait. Let me think through these books, because I haven't read these books in a very long time. I really, I really like the fourth one even though it's like, really long. It's definitely my favorite because I just love like, all the different schools coming and it's just, it's so hard for Harry. And he's also in every movie. He's, like, isolated. I hate it. But the fourth one is actually really good.
Jillian Curwin: Okay, favorite movie?
Zane Landin: The first one. I have to say, even though Prisoner of Azkaban, the third one, is a close second because like the cinematography, it's good, the third one and how it's filmed, and the music. And it's also like, really haunting. I love the third one so much, especially the Dementors. Anyways, the first one is just so good because that's your introduction to the magical world. So it feels so childlike, like it makes so much sense. Like, when you first watch the first one, then even like the second and third one, they're just, they're so different. The first one, you see the magic, you feel it. And I really, it really, really feels like you're experiencing it. And every time I watch it, it feels like I'm experiencing it for the first time. And I always, I know some people, it's hard to like, watch these things, especially if like, your parent loved it, because my mom and I loved watching it. So, like, I know some people like, may not be able to do that. But for me I'm like, I'm going to watch these movies. Cause, like, I feel close to her still doing it and I know that we're watching it together, but oh my gosh, yeah. The first one was just so good.
Jillian Curwin: Okay. Confession. When the first one came out, I was like, in elementary school and we got, I didn't see it in theaters, but we got the DVD. I think it took me a good six months to make it past the troll scene. I think for like the six, first six months that we had the movie, I would stop the movie at the troll scene and like I couldn't, I couldn't watch it. Even though I had read the books and knew what happened. I just, that troll scene. That was, that gave me nightmares.
Zane Landin: Oh, my gosh. Wow.
Jillian Curwin: It was just like the legs like as soon as the legs came on screen, I was done.
Favorite character?
Zane Landin: Oh, my gosh, Harry of course. I mean, I know that I feel like there's not a consensus, but I feel like a lot of people like the character of Hermione, which I do like, she's the second. Like, she's definitely… Without Hermione, I don't think Harry would have gone where he went, where he would have gone. No. Hermione is like, really amazing. But I think I'll be honest, I think like the thing why Hermione is the favorite I think, I think the unfortunate thing about the movies is they took away from Ron's character. Actually, there's actually, like, a lot of good qualities about Ron in the, in the books. But I think that, like, they definitely did not give him those qualities and they gave them to Hermione as well. So like she, in a way, kind of embodied the best, the best qualities of two characters. I don't think it was very fair, but I think that's why a lot of people like her and because she takes a lot of Ron's good qualities. So like there are times, there are times in the books where Ron will do stuff in the movie, she'll do it. I'm like, and they also don't really characterize her at certain times because like, even like, there's the battle scene in like the last, the first part of the last movie, and they do like a duel in a coffee shop in the book, Hermione is actually like really emotional about it because like, that was probably one of her first times doing something like that, maybe. I don't remember, but I remember reading that it was very emotional for her in the books. In the movie, they're just like, so normal about it. I'm like, they like, kind of lose some of their emotions and they, you know, but anyways, so that's sorta my, my gripe with the books and the movies. But anyways, so, but still Hermione is such a she's number two for sure. It's very hard though to pick, to pick between the two because Hermione is just so great and I love every aspect about her. But I have to go with Harry because I don't know. Every time like, I watch, I get so sad because like, the amount of loss he goes through, talk about grieving, the amount of loss that he goes through. And I was like watching one of the scenes from the Deathly Hallows Part One when they're in the sky, in the Battle and Hedwig spoilers and Hedwig…
Jillian Curwin: Spoiler alert. Spoiler alert.
Zane Landin: When Hedwig passes away, I'm like can they just not for once take something from Harry? Like, he has to lose every single thing. He doesn't lose Ron and Hermione, thank goodness. But like, he has to lose his owl too. Like, I can't. It's so hard.
Jillian Curwin: He lost everything. But I think your assessments on Hermione and Harry, are fair. And your gripes, I think, are very valid. I think it's all very fair, what you said.
Favorite creature?
Zane Landin: Ooh, Hagrid is not considered a creature, right?
Jillian Curwin: Hedwig?
Zane Landin: No, Hagrid, he's not right?
Jillian Curwin: Hagrid.
Zane Landin: He's a half giant. That doesn't count. Right?
Jillian Curwin: You can, if you consider him a creature, I will let you count it. I don't know if, like, the Wizarding World would consider him a creature,
Zane Landin: No, I wouldn't. Wow. Oh, my goodness. I'm stuck on Dobby and Fawkes. I will say Dobby. Or Dobey? Dobby! Because I remember in the theater when I watched, spoiler, his death scene and I was like, it was okay. I was like, I didn't really, I didn't feel too attached to Dobby. But then I rewatched it again and I was like, what the heck? I was like, I don’t remember it being, I don't remember it being this sad. And like when Harry is holding him and, like Dobby knows he's going to die. And he says such a beautiful place to be with Harry Potter, his friend. And I'm like, oh my god, I can't deal with this right now. I was like, I don't remember it being that sad. And then like when Bellatrix throws the knife and you see it disappear with them, I was like, no. I was like, I can’t watch it again, oh my gosh.
But anyways, so I would say Dobby because and also he has more of a, a more of a presence in the book. So I think that I wish he was in the movies more because his death would have meant more. But like without, and the whole scene is horrible. Especailly the Bellatrix doing what she does to Hermione. It's really sad and it's just like without Dobby, they would be dead. Like they wouldn't have escaped at all. Like, I love Dobby so much.
Oh, I gotta say this, sorry. Even though Harry is my first and I my second, I will have to say Luna is my third. Luna is my favorite, one of my favorites, because in the fifth movie I feel like she just deeply understands Harry, that again, talk about grief. And as young people who don't really understand grief that much, no one can really understand Harry, and I love that. Like, remember how you said that, like, you're in the club when you experience grief, that is like what happens in the book because, or in the Harry Potter universe, because when you experience death, you can finally see, I don't remember what the creatures are called, but you can actually…
Jillian Curwin: Right, but you can…they’re like horses, but you can't see them until you've witnessed a death.
Zane Landin: Yeah. So it's like actually a physical thing for them that, you know, when you experience grief, you actually see that. And I love that. Even like Luna says, you avoid them because they're different. And I love that Luna just like, completely understood Harry. And even when he lost his godfather in the fifth book or movie, she like actually comforts him. And I don't know. I just, I just love Luna’s character because she was always just so good, and she was always naïve. Like her, like people, like, hiding her stuff, and she, like, played it off as them, like, playing around with. They're like, no, they're bullying you. But she was just like, too, like, good to understand, you know, that's how I saw it. So, gosh, I love Luna’s character. So those three are like, have to be the top three.
Jillian Curwin: I love her. I think she was the most honest character and I think she was the best at reading people. I think Luna saw right through you and knew exactly who you were and she was never afraid to say it. I don't think it was necessarily her, like, thinking that she’s fearless. I think she's just very honest and just very outspoken. But I think all her reads on people, and just she's, she's on it. She, she, she knew what she saw people for who they are.
Zane Landin: Yeah. And you know, I'm gonna bring her up again. But in the third movie with Harry, when he first produces the Patronus charm and he doesn’t do it with Lupin, and then he says, I do have a memory. It's not necessarily happy, but it's all I have. Remember how I mentioned like imagination? Like, I feel like for him he imagined himself with his family talking to them. Even though it's not a real memory, it's so powerful still, because he has it, and it's still imagination like, I was getting at. And I love that there's actually a scene where they're practicing Patronus charms and Harry like, in the movie, says Luna and she's just kind of standing there and she hasn't done a Patronus yet, and I'm like, she's trying to think of a memory. She probably thinks of her mom when she does a Patronus charm, like, it makes me, it makes me so emotional. Like, I love these movies.
Jillian Curwin: Oh, last one is favorite quote.
Zane Landin: Oh gosh. Favorite quote from Harry Potter?
Jillian Curwin: Yes.
Zane Landin: Oh, wow. I can't really think of one off the top of my head, but I know I just saw one. We shared it on the Instagram about Dumbledore. And he has a quote that says, “You'll find happiness in the darkest times. You just have to turn the light on.” And so I love that because I'm not saying that it's black and white. The happiness you have to see, happiness you have to see, the good in others to be happy because like, again, some people it's not possible. But I think it helps though that like, like letting people in, being vulnerable, seeing the good in others because it's so easy to see the bad in everyone, especially when we're always confronted with negative news or negativity or people posting horrible stuff online. It's easy to get, succumb to the darkness. But if we can surround ourselves with good people, people that bring out the best in us, that always encourage us, I think that's where we can see the light and we have to let people in, though it's easy to push people away so that… I love that quote.
Jillian Curwin: Love that. Perfect note to end on. Zane, thank you so much for coming back. You are welcome to come back on any time. Thank you so much for sharing part of your story. And I think this was such an important conversation to have, and I don't think it's the end of the conversation. I truly think that it is an ongoing conversation that needs to happen not just here, but on other platforms and within the community as well.
So again, just thank you so much for wanting to talk about it, for being so open and sharing your story.
Zane Landin: Oh, yeah. Well, thank you so much for having me again on your platform. It's great.
Jillian Curwin: Of course. You are welcome any time. The final, final, final thing I have to ask of you is just to remind my listeners in your most badass voice possible that height is just a number, not a limit.
Zane Landin: Height is just a number and not a limit.
Jillian Curwin: Always Looking Up is hosted by Jillian Curwin and edited and produced by Ben Curwin. Please make sure to rate, review, and subscribe, and follow on Spotify so that you never miss an episode. Follow me on Instagram @jill_ilana and the podcast at @alwayslookingup.podcast for updates and check out my blog jillianilana.com for more content about what it is like to be a little person in an average sized world.
Thanks for listening. See you next week.
Listen to Zane Landin - On Grief and Disability
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